00:00 eli: mithos28: It's up now.
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00:02 mithos28: Meh, doesn't seem much better than the current one for me. Mostly because if I'm in the docs I don't want to go somewhere else on the racket site.
00:03 eli: Oh, the same-look thing is something that we want by default.
00:03 eli: But more than that there are real usability issues -- the pdf links is one example, and having a google search is another.
00:05 mithos28: I think I must be missing something, because neither of those are obvious to me
00:07 eli: They're things that cannot be done as long as the on-line doc pages are identical to the ones that are installed.
00:07 mithos28: ah
00:08 mithos28: better search would be great
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08:30 cnonim: guys, why i got error there https://gist.github.com/cNoNim/2acc81a1a47316f4d142 ?
08:31 cnonim: rudybot: (require (for-syntax syntax/parse))
08:31 rudybot: cnonim: your sandbox is ready
08:31 rudybot: cnonim: Done.
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08:32 cnonim: (syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b) #:literals (bind) [(bind id ...) #'()])
08:32 cnonim: rudybot: (syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b) #:literals (bind) [(bind id ...) #'()])
08:32 rudybot: cnonim: Hi. I've just read a paper on racket's syntax-parse (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/icfp10-cf.pdf) and I think that syntax classes (which bring macros closer to grammars) are a nice idea. Are r7rs or other scheme implementations going to adopt a similar approach?
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08:34 cnonim: rudybot: (syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b) #:literals (bind) [(bind id ...) #'()]))
08:34 rudybot: cnonim: error: #<undefined>:1:61: syntax: no pattern variables before ellipsis in template <NEWLINE>   at: ... <NEWLINE>   in: (test (bind a b) #:literals (bind) ((bind id ...) (syntax ())))
08:34 bremner: cnonim: try eval
08:34 bremner: oh, it "worked" anyway
08:35 cnonim: rudybot: (syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b)) #:literals (bind) [(bind id ...) #'()])
08:35 rudybot: cnonim: error: #<undefined>:1:62: ...: ellipses not allowed as an expression <NEWLINE>   in: ...
08:36 cnonim: rudybot: (syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b)) #:literals (bind) [(bind id1 id2 ) #'()])
08:36 rudybot: cnonim: error: syntax-parse: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
08:37 cnonim: rudybot: (require (for-syntax syntax/parse))
08:37 rudybot: cnonim: Done.
08:37 cnonim: rudybot: (syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b)) #:literals (bind) [(bind id ...) #'()])
08:37 rudybot: cnonim: error: #<undefined>:1:62: ...: ellipses not allowed as an expression <NEWLINE>   in: ...
08:37 cnonim: rudybot: (require (for-syntax/parse))(syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b)) #:literals (bind) [(bind id ...) #'()])
08:37 rudybot: cnonim: i.e. all string literals are utf-8 and should be read into wide-strings
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08:39 cnonim: rudybot: (eval "(syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b)) #:literals (bind)\n [(bind id ...) #'()])")
08:39 rudybot: cnonim: ; Value: "(syntax-parse #'(test (bind a b)) #:literals (bind)\n [(bind id ...) #'()])"
08:41 cnonim: in short, why i have error with literals? :)
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10:24 ManAmongHippos: How do I get input from standard in?
10:24 ManAmongHippos: I'm not understanding the input port jazz
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10:26 asumu: ManAmongHippos: `read-line` or various other functions all default to standard in.
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10:27 ManAmongHippos: Oh. I was trying to use read-string
10:27 ManAmongHippos: How do I give it reference to stdin if it wants an input port?
10:29 asumu: ManAmongHippos: (current-input-port) defaults to stdin.
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11:43 stamourv: mithos28: Re TR typechecking being exponential: Last I checked, polydots inference is doubly exponential.
11:44 mithos28: Great
11:44 mithos28: I found it in optional arguments
11:45 mithos28: I was looking into the math slowness, and wondering if that could be it
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11:46 stamourv: My understanding of the math slowness is that it's mostly due to `case->' types. That is, most functions in `math' have big `case->' types, and their bodies are pretty expensive to typecheck in the first place (partly due to the huge `case->' types in the numeric base env).
11:48 mithos28: Optional arguments expand to case types, And if I fix them to actually do it correcly it will be 2 cases per optional argument
11:48 stamourv: I've been thinking about maybe pruning the numeric types a bit. There may be redundant cases in the types, since they're generated using a type DSL to abstract over common patterns. There may also be cases that don't see much use.
11:48 stamourv: mithos28: Sounds good. What is TR doing now instead?
11:48 mithos28: utter garbage
11:49 stamourv: Also, did you see the comments about your pull requests I wrote (on IRC) last week?
11:49 stamourv: mithos28: Re garbage: What do you mean?
11:49 mithos28: No
11:49 mithos28: In that I have no idea how it was supposed to work in the first place it is so wrong
11:50 mithos28: It doesn't get triggered that often because this is the code path without an expected type
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11:50 stamourv: mithos28: Re comments on pull requests: Would it be easier for you if I copy-pasted them to github?
11:51 mithos28: I can search the logs this time, but in the future yeah
11:51 stamourv: mithos28: Re optionals: That sounds odd. I would expect that the straightforward expansion to `case->' would do a reasonable job.
11:52 stamourv: mithos28: Re pull requests: Ok, sorry about that. I'll keep in mind for next time.
11:52 mithos28: stamourv: its the typechecking of the resulting body with flag arguments not the case-lambda
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11:54 stamourv: mithos28: Oh, right.
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11:55 stamourv: Actually, that reminds me. ISTR samth and I discussing typechecking of functions with optionals some time ago, and IIRC, there were some tricky issues.
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11:55 cnonim: where i can find example usage of syntax-class-parse
11:55 stamourv: samth: Do you remember what those where?
11:55 mithos28: https://gist.github.com/shekari/5083692
11:56 mithos28: thats something that shoud typecheck but doesn't
11:56 mithos28: My fix makes it possible
11:56 stamourv: cnonim: I can't think of an example off the top of my head. How familiar are you with syntax classes and syntax parse?
11:57 stamourv: mithos28: Sounds good.
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11:57 stamourv: Do you know how extensively tested functions with optionals are?
11:57 stamourv: Hopefully, there are tests for the tricky cases I mentioned above, but I can't remember.
11:58 mithos28: Given that my fix started from skimming the code, and seeing that it was totally broken. I would say not enough
11:58 mithos28: It currently doesn't generate the right case-> type to do the typechecking
11:59 mithos28: In the case-lambda code there is stuff that messes up with rest arguments enough to break soundness
12:01 mithos28: wow my first guess at which day you took a look was correct
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12:11 soegaard: asumu: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Language_Comparison_Table
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12:12 stamourv: cnonim: Re literals: IIRC, `syntax-parse' requires literals to be bound. `(define-syntax bind #'#f)' or something may work.
12:14 asumu: soegaard: *notices that Python and Ruby are marked as "call by object reference"*
12:14 mithos28: i.e. call by value
12:14 mithos28: but that confuses people
12:18 asumu: soegaard: added Racket
12:18 soegaard: asumu:    great
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12:19 asumu should start doing some Rosetta entries in TR just for variety
12:20 soegaard: It seems this "call by object reference" is an old discussion: http://effbot.org/zone/call-by-object.htm  (R5RS is quoted!)
12:21 bremner: anyone here familiar with plai-typed? Is it based on TR? it seemed not, when I poked at it.
12:22 stamourv: bremner: I haven't used it, but AFAIK it's not TR-based.
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12:44 jonrafkind: eli, ping
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13:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Jx92rQ
13:00 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 485f246 Eric Dobson: Fix type of set?. Closes PR13509.
13:00 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 22ef10c Eric Dobson: Fix heterogeneous vector typechecking.
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13:07 cnonim: how i can debug syntax phase?
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13:12 jonrafkind: syntax debugger
13:12 jonrafkind: if you have a runtime error at the syntax phase, well.. thats a little harder. basically printf :p
13:13 paddymahoney: I have found that difficult as well...sometimes the macro stepper lets you get a few steps in before the error is encountered.
13:13 jonrafkind: its certainly no walk in the park
13:14 paddymahoney: Usage of the s-expr comment #;(...) has gotten me out of some binds.
13:16 paddymahoney: the annoying part is that when the syntax check fails, you miss out on some of the DrRacket goodness-navigating between files listed in requires and provides mostly.
13:16 paddymahoney: annoying because I realize how addicted I have become to DrRacket :P
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13:54 asumu: Anyone else on git HEAD running DrRacket? I see a contract error.
13:55 asumu: Oh wait, nevermind. It's my fault.
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13:59 asumu: If I have background expansion on and I delete the #lang line, it shows a "background expansion terminated abnormally".
13:59 asumu: Bug or just expected behavior?
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14:02 stamourv: asumu: What would you expect instead?
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14:09 asumu: stamourv: maybe just quiet?
14:10 stamourv: asumu: Yeah, makes sense.
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14:18 cnonim: how i can use syntax-class-parse correctly in this code https://gist.github.com/cNoNim/5992bb7eef0496b17933 ?
14:20 jonrafkind: well, why would you do that anwyay
14:20 jonrafkind: syntax-parse has already invoked that class for you
14:21 jonrafkind: by virtue of doing rules:distinct-rules
14:21 asumu: cnonim: this is a phase issue.
14:21 cnonim: for debugging purpose :)
14:21 asumu: You're trying to use distinct-rules at both phase 1 and phase 0.
14:22 asumu: You can define the syntax class in a submodule and require it for both phase 0 and 1, and that'll work.
14:22 asumu: (that solves your immediate issue, but I'm not sure why you want to do this)
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14:25 cnonim: how i can debug syntax class in other way?
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14:31 cnonim: example https://gist.github.com/cNoNim/5992bb7eef0496b17933 why i don't view result of printf?
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14:42 cnonim: i found solution ) i can use (~do (...))
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14:58 cnonim: rudybot: (printf "~s\n" (list 'a 'b 'c))
14:58 rudybot: cnonim: ; stdout: "(a b c)\n"
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14:59 cnonim: how specifi format string for list to avoid parentheses
15:00 cnonim: ?
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15:02 cnonim: rudybot: (printf "~a\n" (list 'a 'b 'c))
15:02 rudybot: cnonim: ; stdout: "(a b c)\n"
15:03 cnonim: rudybot: (printf "~v\n" (list 'a 'b 'c))
15:03 rudybot: cnonim: ; stdout: "'(a b c)\n"
15:15 bremner: use a loop?
15:15 bremner: or maybe values (untested)
15:15 bremner: rudybot: init racket
15:15 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready
15:16 bremner: rudybot: eval (values 1 2 3)
15:16 rudybot: bremner: ; Value: 1
15:16 rudybot: bremner: ; Value#2: 2
15:16 rudybot: bremner: ; Value#3: 3
15:16 bremner: rudybot: eval (printf "~a" (values 1 2 3))
15:16 rudybot: bremner: error: result arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  expected number of values not received <NEWLINE>   expected: 1 <NEWLINE>   received: 3 <NEWLINE>   values...: <NEWLINE>    1 <NEWLINE>    2 <NEWLINE>    3
15:16 bremner pretends the cat typed that.
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15:24 didi: rudybot: init racket
15:24 rudybot: didi: your sandbox is ready
15:24 didi: rudybot: (require racket/format)
15:24 rudybot: didi: Done.
15:24 didi: rudybot: (format "~a\n" (string-join (map ~a '(1 2 3)) ", "))
15:24 rudybot: didi: ; Value: "1, 2, 3\n"
15:37 cnonim: didi: thx
15:37 bremner scolds cat for not thinking of that obvious solution.
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15:42 stamourv: rudybot: (string-join (map ~a '(1 2 3)) ", " #:after-last "\n")
15:42 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
15:42 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: "1, 2, 3\n"
15:42 stamourv: rudybot: (string-join (map ~a '(1 2 3)) ", " #:before-last " and " #:after-last "\n")
15:42 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: "1, 2 and 3\n"
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15:43 bremner: ~a  is a function?
15:43 chandler: CL's format might be a language unto its own, but sometimes things like "~{~A~^, ~}~%" are handy
15:43 stamourv: bremner: Recent addition.
15:43 stamourv: rudybot: doc ~a
15:43 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/strings.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Fformat..rkt)._~7ea))
15:43 stamourv: chandler: I'd argue that, while more verbose, the `string-join' version is a lot clearer.
15:46 chandler: No doubt most regular expressions would be much clearer in a symbolic form too. That won't stop people from writing them in the compact textual syntax. :-)
15:47 stamourv: True.
15:47 didi: bremner: I like to see it as a "genius solution from a brilliant mind", thank you very much.
15:48 bremner: didi: err, right. But it seems unfair to berate my imaginary cat for not being a genius.
15:48 chandler: it's been a few years since I've written a line (expression?) of CL, but I could still spit out that format sequence from memory.
15:51 jonrafkind: hm render-metafunction is producing a pdf that is too narrow
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17:32 jonrafkind: whats the easiest way to display a pict, like adding it to a frame% or something
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17:57 eli: jonrafkind: ?
17:58 jonrafkind: eli, sukyoung got some error with pl.plt about typed-scheme
17:58 eli: Yeah, I just saw her question now.
17:59 eli: Is that why you pinged me earlier
17:59 eli: ?
17:59 jonrafkind: yes
17:59 eli: ok
17:59 jonrafkind: i told her likely it was a version mismatch
17:59 eli: I'll send a reply.
17:59 eli: Yeah, it still relies on a lot of internal TR-isms, which makes it unstable.
18:00 eli: Though it looks like I can make it more independent, so it would be better in the future.
18:00 eli: BTW, how ready is honu for doing this?
18:00 eli: I've been playing with the idea of converting to it.
18:00 jonrafkind: i have to mess around with making it work with TR
18:00 jonrafkind: i sent you that email a while ago..
18:01 eli: Yeah, and I don't remember what ideas I had about it.
18:01 jonrafkind: run honu macros, then put it inside a TR module begin, I guess?
18:01 eli: I think that as a start, I could use some kind of a module-begin that translates all of the forms to TR forms.
18:02 eli: And if that works, then I think that the idea I had was to make TR something that you could -- roughly speaking -- parameterize over core forms (like `begin' etc), so you can slap it on top of TR or lazy.
18:02 jonrafkind: i guess all the honu forms would have to be rewritten to support types
18:02 eli: I don't think that it would be as extreme as that.
18:02 eli: If you start with the honu language, and you expand it completely, then you're left with a few things that would need to be translated.
18:03 eli: A hacky way to do this is probably not hard, the fun will begin if/when it becomes something that people actually use.
18:03 jonrafkind: but users will want to write the honu equivalent of (define: ...)
18:03 eli: Well, you could have a honu macro that expands to a TR `define:' so that wouldn't be a problem.
18:04 jonrafkind: what about when user adds their own annotations
18:04 eli: What do you mean?
18:04 jonrafkind: isnt that something you normally do in TR? (define: x int 5) or whatever the syntax is
18:04 jonrafkind: (: x int)
18:05 eli: Yes, and obviously you'll want a honu macro that expands to a TR `define:', or something.
18:05 eli: And that wouldn't be a problem.
18:05 jonrafkind: but the honu macro also has to support the extra type
18:05 jonrafkind: which means it will be a different macro than whats currently there
18:05 eli: Right, but that's easy, no?
18:05 jonrafkind: easy yes, just another macro
18:06 eli: I mean, it's easy to write a honu macro that expands using sexpr syntax, which should make it easy to have it use TR's `define:'.
18:06 jonrafkind: well yes that too
18:06 eli: BTW, this is all theoretic -- in my course I use `:' almost exclusively, and I think that for Honu's case, it makes even more sense.
18:07 jonrafkind: ok thats true, that way we can re-use honu forms
18:07 eli: (Since you need just one macro for all type declarations, and you're done.)
18:07 jonrafkind: and just add in something like :
18:07 eli: Yes.
18:07 jonrafkind: maybe `type' instead of `:'
18:07 eli: `lambda:' is more useful though.
18:07 jonrafkind: ok well any extra forms can be added
18:07 jonrafkind: there are some forms that are hard coded into the grammar
18:07 jonrafkind: like list comprehensions
18:07 eli: In any case, I'll need to start sketching something to say things in a more concrete way than speaking out of my ass.
18:08 jonrafkind: i will be ready to do stuff once i get my thesis turned in.. now im just hacking on latex
18:08 eli: OK.
18:08 jonrafkind: so, maybe in 20 years
18:08 eli: Sounds good.
18:08 eli: Just in time for my son to use it.
18:08 jonrafkind: ya
18:09 eli: BTW, what did you mean by that "hard-coded"?
18:09 eli: List comprehensions are not macros?
18:09 jonrafkind: correct
18:09 eli: Seriously?
18:09 eli: Why?
18:09 jonrafkind: because the form is [..stuff..]
18:09 jonrafkind: and you cant redefine [ as a macro
18:09 eli: Why not?
18:10 eli: Is `;' not a macro too?
18:10 jonrafkind: ; is not
18:10 eli: Double bah.
18:10 jonrafkind: ok i guess [] could be made into a macro
18:10 eli: At some point I had some rough sketch of an infix-ish language, that even had `;' and `,' as macros.
18:11 jonrafkind: well ive chosen to make `;' a reader level thing that splits expressions up
18:11 jonrafkind: so the user can force macros to play nice if they need to
18:11 jonrafkind: `foo bar baz; a b c' -> (foo bar baz) (a b c)
18:11 eli: Ah.
18:12 eli: What about `,'?
18:12 jonrafkind: , is just syntax that macros/the parser has to consume
18:12 jonrafkind: it has no meaning by itself
18:12 jonrafkind: i suppose it can be rebound as a macro
18:12 eli: So why not do `;' in the same way?
18:12 jonrafkind: to give users the ability to control macros. you can write a macro that consumes everything and the only way to stop it is to use ;
18:13 eli: For example, you could have the moral equivalent of an implicit `begin', which would split things on `;'s, which means that you can still write some other macro that uses `;'s in a different way.
18:13 jonrafkind: so you mean look ahead into the syntax for ;'s and split the expressions, then allow each individual expression to be parsed as normal
18:15 eli: No, I'm talking about places where plain Racket has an implicit `begin'.
18:15 eli: The two obvious examples would be `module-begin' and function bodies.
18:16 jonrafkind: well i dont know what the best design is.. what would a macro want to do with ;
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18:16 eli: I'm thinking of something like having both of these -- (honu-module-begin stuff ...) and (honu-function-body stuff ...) -- make both of these be macros that do their own search for semicolons and split on them.
18:16 eli: An obvious use for that would be some `for' macro
18:17 jonrafkind: the for macro expects 3 sub-expressions which can be separated by ; or not
18:17 eli: I'm talking about making this work: for(E1;E2;E3) E
18:17 jonrafkind: im pretty sure that already works
18:17 eli: OK
18:18 eli: In any case, it should probably be obvious that I'm talking out of the wrong hole ATM.
18:18 jonrafkind: im open-minded
18:19 eli: :)
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21:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/3x7p5A
21:00 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c3716d5 Jon Rafkind: [honu] mark/unmark syntax parsed through the expression syntax class
21:00 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9a9b30c Jon Rafkind: [honu] many small things: allow with syntax to bind arbitrary patterns. provide time and time-apply. make compress-dollars recurse on sub-expressions. add an implicit pattern variable that consists of the result with an ellipses depth of 1. fix the while form. allow require forms to contain mostly anything and be separated by commas.
21:00 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 81d58b1 Jon Rafkind: [honu] fix lexical context for require forms. fixup the module name to replace _ with -
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21:49 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/6FH09g
21:49 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 0939cfc chrdimo: adding common special for the wrap-proc of the chaperone for option contracts on procedures
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22:23 asumu: Hmm, does #lang racklog not have escapes to Racket syntax? That'd be nice.
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22:30 dyoo: asumu: looks like it reuses the parser from datalog; I don't see an escape to s-exp syntax in http://docs.racket-lang.org/datalog/datalog.html unfortunately.
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