00:00 dented42: thanks
00:01 dented42: well now I just feel silly, how did I miss an entire section of documentation?
00:02 dented42: oh well
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00:09 anonymous64000 has sent the bugreport!
00:15 asumu: anonymous64000: Thanks.
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00:22 anonymous64000: asumu: not at all!
00:22 anonymous64000: I was happy to do it.
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00:29 anonymous64000: asumu: you have deleted the correct report; I accidentally entered incorrect e-mail in the first time, and then message was like "it still can be needed". And then I sent it the second time, with correct. And you've deleted the second.
00:30 anonymous64000: or not deleted, but marked as incorrect
00:31 anonymous64000: I am sorry
00:32 anonymous64000: s/deleted/closed
00:32 (quit) ivan\: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
00:37 anonymous64000: ...and I need to add a note: there are more wrong ’s on the page
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00:37 anonymous64000: so, you should use Ctrl+F or something
00:40 anonymous64000: So, please open it or add it yourself, please
00:41 anonymous64000: s/, please//
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01:01 anonymous64000: asumu: I dunno; maybe you can't open it or something and thinks I am very sad about that or something - nevermind, please, that's ok.
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01:09 anonymous64000: think*
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08:06 bremner: a debian user asks about mime-types for racket to make XDG aware desktop environments better at starting up DrRacket. Has someone come up with such things already?
08:06 bremner: I tend not to be highly motivated by desktop issues, since I don't use one...
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08:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nTjwkg
08:26 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4494788 Robby Findler: fix rendering of example in Guide...
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08:54 samth: bremner: i don't think so
08:54 samth: there was some discussion about a .desktop file recently on one of the lists
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09:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/2_DYKg
09:48 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 6ae2c71 Jay McCarthy: Add raco show -d and showing package deps on failed remove
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11:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/Q5mXVw
11:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4a0adb6 Matthew Flatt: fix `syntax-local-submodules' in `expand' mode
11:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 8c2c84f Matthew Flatt: fix context for `#%module-begin' form in a submodule
11:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c6eb825 Matthew Flatt: fix `syntax-local-module-exports' for submodules in expand mode
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11:54 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9rf_Yw
11:54 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 7dff18c Robby Findler: add for/set and it's varieties to the default prefs
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11:58 jonrafkind: oh shucks, i choose today of all days to git pull
11:58 mithos28: well asumu already figured out the breaker
11:59 jonrafkind: yea, thats good at least
11:59 jonrafkind: ill just wait for matthew to fix it
12:01 acarrico: Anyone know if there scribble support for writing docs for other languages? Like C.
12:01 mithos28: acarrico: People use it to write conference papers
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12:02 asumu: It would be less useful for other languages since the binding information is lost, but I suppose you could do it.
12:02 mithos28: What features would you need for writing docs for other languages
12:03 mithos28: asumu: Couldn't you just make a module that had all of the bindings you wanted to talk about, and require that for-label
12:03 asumu: Yes, I suppose so, if they were legal Racket identifiers.
12:03 acarrico: Well, there are things like defproc, defstruct.
12:03 mithos28: asumu: What isn't a legal racket identifier?
12:04 mithos28: rudybot: (define |(| 3)
12:04 rudybot: mithos28: your sandbox is ready
12:04 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
12:04 asumu: Things that start with #s, say.
12:04 asumu doesn't know of any mainstream language that has that though
12:04 mithos28: rudybot: (define |#s| 3)
12:04 rudybot: mithos28: Done.
12:04 mithos28: rudybot: |#s|
12:04 rudybot: mithos28: ; Value: 3
12:04 acarrico: And I assume the output will look like sexp docs.
12:05 mithos28: acarrico: If you are talking about the examples, then you should be able to have them in non sexps
12:06 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/datalog/Tutorial.html?q=datalog&q=racklog
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12:09 acarrico: I guess I'll have to read more to figure out what I want, but basically something like http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/doc-forms.html, but the documentation comes out like a C api, instead of a racket api.
12:10 acarrico: I guess that would require some programming, but perhaps someone has done it.
12:10 jonrafkind: that would be an excellent piece of software if you could do it
12:11 acarrico: Yes, but a distraction from the documentation at hand.
12:11 acarrico: :(.
12:11 jonrafkind: perfect!
12:11 acarrico laughs.
12:11 acarrico: How many nested distractions are allowed?
12:11 mithos28: acarrico: Have you taken a look at the documentation of racket's c internals
12:11 acarrico: Good idea.
12:11 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/Ports_and_the_Filesystem.html?q=inside
12:12 mithos28: That seems like it produces exactly what you want
12:12 acarrico: I should look at the source for that.
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12:13 mithos28: I bet it is currently not exported publicly, but that could easily change if there was desire for it
12:15 acarrico: looks like that is collects/scribblings/inside/ports.scrbl
12:15 acarrico: #lang scribble/doc
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12:29 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NYHIqw
12:29 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d408ba4 Matthew Flatt: fix submodule `expand' handling...
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12:31 acarrico: mithos28: it looks like it is in utils.rkt in that directory.
12:33 didi: Yay, I've finished the very first version of my mini-library for unix sockets domain.
12:33 jonrafkind: didnt ryan write a unix sockets domain library?
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12:35 didi: jonrafkind: He wrote some to use with the db library. He said that he would release a separated version of it but I guess he might be busy.
12:35 jonrafkind: oh ok
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12:38 acarrico: mithos: collects/scribblings/inside/utils.rkt works perfectly. Nice.
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12:39 jonrafkind: matthews latest commit seems to have fixed the segfault
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12:40 acarrico: mithos28: sorry missed the 28 suffix on your name above. I'll see how it goes, but it does seem like it would be nice to export that at some point.
12:40 didi: I would use ryan's, but I have to push forward.
12:41 mithos28: acarrico: I'm not the one to talk to about it, matthew is. If you want it exported I would either file a feature request though the bug report functionality or send an email to users@racket-lang.org
12:42 acarrico: mithos28: got ya. Thanks.
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14:03 rich__: why is there a conceptual difference between (for instance) sum and max
14:03 rich__: e.g. (sum '(1 2 3))
14:03 rich__: (max '(1 2 3)) doesn't work
14:03 rich__: why don't they both take lists, or both be "varargs" - still a newbie with that concept
14:04 ijp: there is a variable arity sum, it's called +
14:04 ryan_c: rich__, the varargs version of sum is called +
14:04 ijp: max is also not really defined for the empty list
14:05 bremner: why does sum exist?
14:05 rich__: thanks both
14:05 samth: rudybot: doc sum
14:05 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
14:05 rudybot: samth: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: math/base
14:06 samth: rudybot: (require math/base)
14:06 rudybot: samth: Done.
14:06 ijp: you could use +inf.0 for (max) I suppose
14:06 samth: rudybot: doc sum
14:06 rudybot: samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/math/base.html#(def._((lib._math%2Fbase..rkt)._sum))
14:06 rich__: i haven't got to "varargs" myself - i've learned define, let, lambda and calling existing procedures
14:06 rich__: in terms of writing a procedure that takes many related items - is there a preference between taking a list or taking varargs
14:06 samth: bremner: that version of `sum` exists to avoid rounding error
14:06 samth: bremner: and that looks like the only version
14:09 bremner: samth: huh, I guess it's a bit slower than + then? or is there some other reason not to have that behaviour for +?
14:09 samth: bremner: + just adds them up in the order they appear
14:10 bremner: right. But is that order important?
14:10 samth: i expect that sum is slower
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14:28 rich__: i can only guess of the complexities (especially in a general case) - but ...
14:28 rich__: (parallel-map F LIST)
14:28 rich__: would be cool
14:29 rich__: or even (parallel-map F LIST WORKERS-COUNT)
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14:35 ijp: we have that in guile, I'd be surprised if it wasn't in racket somewhere.
14:35 bremner: it shouldn't be too hard write one using e.g. futures, but you need some serious computation on each element to make it worthwhile. There is a bottleneck in starting jobs on a list.
14:36 didi: rich__: With list it might be a problem as it's a linked data structure.
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14:38 tcsc: something like (define (parallel-for-each f l) (for-each touch (for/list ([e l]) (future (lambda () (f e))))) might work
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14:40 tcsc: (untested) parallel map would just be map touch instead, i think, but i think that's more likely to cause the futures to run sequentially or something
14:40 bremner: well, they can't help but be started sequentially, can they?
14:40 tcsc: no, but they'll run concurrently
14:41 bremner: right, as long as they run long enough for that to be meaningful.
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14:44 ryan_c: there's for/async in unstable/future; you could add a for/list/async to that
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14:50 rich__: would those use multiple cores on a multi-core machine
14:50 rich__: i thought i seen in the manual some things are restricted to just 1
14:51 tcsc: just threads
14:51 tcsc: and thread-based things
14:51 tcsc: futures and places are both multi-processor
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15:08 didi *sigh*
15:08 didi: `accept' blocks the whole process.
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15:10 LnL: Can anyone tell me in which cases it's 'begin-encourage-inline' would be usefull?
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15:24 stamourv: LnL: `begin-encourage-inline' is useful when you have helper functions that you really want inlined, for performance reasons.
15:24 stamourv: Without having to inline them yourself, which can be bad for maintainability, etc.
15:25 stamourv: It's there only for performance.
15:27 LnL: Is it usefull for constants aswell, or does that happen automatically?
15:28 stamourv: Inlining only applies to functions. You're thinking of constant propagation, which does happen automatically.
15:29 LnL: Ok that makes more sense, THX
15:29 stamourv: Inlining also happens automatically, but only to a certain extent. (With recusive functions, you could end up inlining infinitely, which would cause the compiler to loop forever.) `begin-encourage-inline' only tells the compiler to try harder for its contents.
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15:30 dyoo: didi: accept?
15:30 dyoo: didi: Can you provide more context?
15:31 didi: dyoo: Yeah. From libc, sorry.
15:31 dyoo: Can you use a select (or in Racket terms, sync) to tell whether or not the port's ready?
15:31 didi: dyoo: I would love to!
15:32 didi goes manual digging for `sync'
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15:32 LnL: stamourv: So is it worth using, or is it useless in most cases?
15:33 dyoo: didi: sync is basically select.  It's more general in Racket since it hooks into the event system.  See: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/sync.html#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._sync%29%29
15:33 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a2o3tov
15:33 didi: dyoo: Would it work with file descriptors? Because that is what I have.
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15:34 dyoo: didi: perhaps you can wrap the file descriptor so Racket thinks of it as a port: http://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/Ports_and_the_Filesystem.html?q=fd#%28idx._%28gentag._494._%28lib._scribblings%2Finside%2Finside..scrbl%29%29%29
15:34 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/awu53oj
15:35 didi: dyoo: Yeah, I know that function. It's great. I'm using it already, but I don't know if it'll work with unconnected sockets.
15:36 dyoo: didi: not quite sure.  If that doesn't work, more directly: http://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/threads.html?q=fd#%28cpp._scheme_add_evt%29
15:36 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a933nml
15:37 dyoo: in any event, it sounds like you'll want to somehow hook into sync to keep from blocking, I think..
15:37 didi: dyoo: Yeah. The real problem is that once inside `accept' I can't even break it with C-c.
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15:38 didi: Anyway, I'll do more reading. Thank you, dyoo.
15:39 stamourv: LnL: Like any manual optimization, it really depends on your program.
15:39 stamourv: If you're just learning, I wouldn't worry about it.
15:40 stamourv: If you have a program that's running slower than you would like, and you can narrow down the problem to functions not being inlined (shameless plug: the Optimization Coach DrRacket plugin can help you reach that diagnosis), then it's worth using.
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15:47 asumu: BTW: whatever happened to 5.3.3?
15:48 stamourv: IIRC, it was waiting on a bugfix from dyoo.
15:49 stamourv: For a planet2 + DrRacket bug.
15:50 asumu: I thought the conclusion was that the bug was going to be skipped.
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15:52 stamourv: Maybe. I don't remember a conclusion being reached.
15:53 asumu wonders if Ubuntu's phone OS could run Racket apps
15:54 didi: asumu: I think that is one of the goals, right? Running the same application on all the platforms.
15:55 asumu: I think so, but what about GUI toolkits and phone-specific APIs etc?
15:56 didi: Good question. Apparently they started using QML.
15:56 ryan_c: 5.3.3 will not try to fix any planet2 issues. It should be out soon.
15:56 asumu: Hmm, QML might be hard with Racket.
15:56 asumu: If it requires binding to Qt.
15:56 didi: True.
15:57 asumu: ryan_c: ok, that's good to hear.
16:00 didi: asumu: Maybe they will offer some dbus interfaces.
16:00 didi: It's not enough for GUI toolkits but you can at least participate to the OSes events.
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16:01 asumu: Yeah, I wouldn't mind writing a QML/JS frontend if I can do the backend in Racket.
16:06 asumu wonders how python does its Qt bindings and if Racket could support that.
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16:11 asumu: Maybe http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Smoke would help
16:11 didi: asumu: Qt has a C binding, so my guess is pythons might build from there. At least that's how CL does it.
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16:12 didi: Yeah, the CL binding uses Smoke.
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16:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/PckikQ
16:17 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f081337 Ryan Culpepper: fix error message
16:17 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 1ef3845 Ryan Culpepper: added unstable/macro-testing
16:17 RacketCommitBot: racket/master fbee1ed Ryan Culpepper: change stxparse tests to use unstable/macro-testing
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16:34 anonymou2: Hello everyone!
16:35 anonymou2: I am reading 2.4.3
16:35 anonymou2: rudybot: (+ 1 . (2))
16:35 rudybot: anonymou2: your sandbox is ready
16:35 rudybot: anonymou2: ; Value: 3
16:35 anonymou2: why?!!
16:36 anonymou2: (2.4.3 is the part of the Racket Guide)
16:37 ryan_c: to a first approximation, (+ 1 . (2)) is indistinguishable from (+ 1 2)
16:37 anonymou2: why?
16:37 ryan_c: that is, the reader produces the same thing for both of them
16:37 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
16:38 anonymou2: thx. But why? It seems for me like Racket should try to execute 2
16:39 anonymou2: rudybot: (+ 1 . (2))
16:39 rudybot: anonymou2: ; Value: 3
16:39 anonymou2: rudybot: '(+ 1 . (2))
16:39 rudybot: anonymou2: ; Value: (+ 1 2)
16:39 anonymou2: hm...
16:39 anonymou2: ok
16:39 ryan_c: no, parens only mean application in certain contexts
16:39 asumu: Reading happens before execution.
16:40 asumu: rudybot: eval (define x '(+ 1 . (2)) (eval x)
16:40 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
16:40 rudybot: asumu: error: #<undefined>:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `('
16:40 asumu: rudybot: eval (define x '(+ 1 . (2))) (eval x)
16:40 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 3
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16:41 ryan_c: for example, in (case '+ [(/ 1 0) 'a] [else 'b]), racket doesn't execute the (/ 1 0) because that's not an expression position; it's a list-of-atoms position
16:41 asumu: Although that behavior of case trips me up quite often.
16:41 ryan_c: likewise, in (+ 1 . (2)), the (2) is not an expression, it's a list-of-arguments
16:42 anonymou2: rudybot: x
16:42 rudybot: anonymou2: error: x: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
16:42 anonymou2: rudybot:  (define x '(+ 1 . (2)))
16:42 rudybot: anonymou2: Done.
16:42 anonymou2: rudybot:  x
16:42 rudybot: anonymou2: ; Value: (+ 1 2)
16:46 (quit) tcsc: Quit: computer sleeping
16:47 anonymou2 , it seems, has got the clue and is going to re-read. Thank you very much.
16:49 anonymou2: #
16:49 anonymou2: a reader layer, which turns a sequence of characters into lists, symbols, and other constants; and
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16:50 anonymou2: I think it can be told more obvious; The ambiguity I see now:
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16:52 anonymou2: Variant 1. It turns the sequence of character into another sequence of character: lists are expanded etc. The programmer write code like it: reader must only check correctness and he can't transform anything.
16:52 anonymou2: transform the text*
16:54 stamourv: anonymou2: That's not right. The reader turns a sequence of characters into data structures, not into another sequence of characters.
16:54 stamourv: rudybot: (list? (with-input-from-string "(test)" read))
16:54 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
16:54 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: #t
16:54 stamourv: rudybot: (string? (with-input-from-string "(test)" read))
16:54 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: #f
16:58 asumu: eli: any reason XREPL doesn't try to override the DrRacket REPL by detecting the current-input-port as an 'unsaved-editor\d*? Is that by design?
16:58 asumu: I suppose readline wouldn't work if it's not stdin.
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17:10 eli: asumu: Are you talking about using xrepl from drracket?  If so, then that has a bunch of additional issues with it.
17:11 anonymou2: Can I see how the expression (+ 1 . (2)), is being executed step-by-step? What does reader and what does expander?
17:11 anonymou2: do*
17:12 stamourv: anonymou2: You can use DrRacket's macro stepper.
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17:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to release: http://git.io/w5ly6Q
17:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/release 91b6525 Robby Findler: adjust contour to track edit sequences better...
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17:21 asumu: You can see what the reader does by just reading it. i.e.,
17:21 asumu: rudybot: (with-input-from-string "(+ 1 . (2))" (lambda () (read)))
17:21 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: (+ 1 2)
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17:26 anonymou2: Got it. And 2.4.3 too . Thank you very much!
17:26 anonymou2: I've*
17:27 anonymou2: that*
17:35 friscosam: is there a parameter to control printing a rational with a decimal point?
17:35 friscosam: so 1/2 would write as 0.5
17:37 didi: friscosam: They are different beasts.
17:37 didi: rudybot: (exact->inexact 1/2)
17:37 rudybot: didi: your sandbox is ready
17:37 rudybot: didi: ; Value: 0.5
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17:39 stamourv: rudybot: require racket/pretty
17:39 rudybot: stamourv: since there is a racket/pretty, is there a racket/ugly?
17:39 stamourv: rudybot: (require racket/pretty)
17:39 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
17:40 stamourv: rudybot: doc pretty-print-exact-as-decimal
17:40 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/pretty-print.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Fpretty..rkt)._pretty-print-exact-as-decimal))
17:40 stamourv: friscosam: ^
17:40 friscosam: stamourv: that is what I was looking for
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17:41 eli: asumu: Much easier: (read (open-input-string "(+ 1 . (2))"))
17:41 (quit) anonymou2: Quit: leaving
17:42 eli: And even easier than that: '(+ 1 . (2))
17:42 friscosam: I found read-decimal-as-inexact for handling reading, but I couldn't find a parameter for writing
17:42 asumu: rudybot: eval (require racket/format) (~r 1/2)
17:42 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: "0.5"
17:42 asumu: That also works.
17:42 friscosam: oooh
17:42 eli: asumu: And see my question above -- if you're asking about xrepl in drr, it's something that I played with, but will require some work, in case you're interested.
17:43 asumu: eli: yeah, that was my question. It would be nice, but I probably don't have time to hack on it.
17:43 eli: Bah, then.
17:43 eli: It could be nice and useful in drr too.
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17:57 dyoo: friscosam: if you're in DrRacket, there's specific code to handle the rational to either fractions or repeating decimal: http://docs.racket-lang.org/framework/Number_Snip.html#%28def._%28%28lib._framework%2Fmain..rkt%29._number-snip~3amake-repeating-decimal-snip%29%29
17:57 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/bbbbmg9
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18:01 dyoo: friscosam: for example: https://gist.github.com/dyoo/4949192 in DrRacket
18:03 dyoo: stamourv: I thought I was overruled about trying to get planet2 fixed, and that the release would go on.
18:06 stamourv: dyoo: Could be. I didn't pay that much attention to that thread.
18:06 dyoo: Ok, I'll  send an explicit question to make sure I'm not blocking to racket-dev.
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18:52 qnavry: Is there any way to use thread-sleep! in racket? I've tried importing srfi-18 and it doesn't seem to define it.
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18:53 jonrafkind: i dont see thread-sleep! in srfi 18
18:53 jonrafkind: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-18/srfi-18.html
18:53 jonrafkind: oh wait its there
18:54 ryan_c: qnavry, look at the sleep function in racket
18:54 jonrafkind: seems rackets srfi 18 just provides `thread'
18:54 jonrafkind: probably srfi 18 should export all those other functions, (rename-out [sleep thread-sleep!]) and whatnot
18:54 qnavry: ryan_c: I've seen that, but I can't figure out how to get it to work with r5rs.
18:56 ryan_c: ah, try (#%require (only racket/base sleep))
18:56 qnavry: ryan_c: Works, thanks.
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19:06 jonrafkind: how does racket.tex from scribble get inserted into the ultimate .tex file
19:07 jonrafkind: it seems to be missing in my final tex file
19:07 jonrafkind: i just updated to head today
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