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00:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f42cc6f Neil Toronto: Fixed major performance issue with matrix arithmetic; please merge to 5.3.2...
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00:20 dented42: the futures visualizer will tell me on what operation a future blocks, but I'm asking something a bit more fundamental. What is it about futures and arithmetic that causes some mixed-type arithmetic block?
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00:42 lewis1711: "lol.cpp::37: read: cannot begin with `e' in efine
00:42 lewis1711: " weird error message when doing (file->list "lol.cpp")
00:44 lewis1711: I can file->string just fine
00:44 lewis1711: a bug?
00:44 didi: lewis1711: It uses `read'.
00:44 didi: lewis1711: If you don't provide any `proc'.
00:44 lewis1711: and what's wrong with read? :)
00:45 didi: lewis1711: It expects datums.
00:45 lewis1711: huh :/
00:46 lewis1711: why would it expect datums?
00:46 didi: lewis1711: Because it's `read'. ;^)
00:46 (quit) jao: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
00:46 didi: Like in REPL.
00:46 didi: ReadEPL.
00:47 didi: Read Eval Print Loop
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00:48 lewis1711: that's a sort of weird default use-case for file->string
00:49 didi: ITYM `file->list'
00:50 lewis1711: yes
00:50 lewis1711: my mistake
00:50 didi: lewis1711: You might want to try `file->lines'.
00:51 didi: Maybe that's what you expected.
00:51 lewis1711: aha
00:51 lewis1711: that's what I wanted, thanks did
00:51 didi: :^)
00:52 lewis1711: someone on reddit is wrong about racket and they need to be educated >(
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01:06 neilv: http://xkcd.com/386/
01:07 lewis1711: neilv, yes that's what I was thinking of too :)
01:08 lewis1711: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/16xz2e/realm_of_racket_an_illustrated_guide_to_a_modern/c81bhr0
01:08 lewis1711: I have two goals on reddit: to convince people that racket is amazing, and to convince people that python is garbage. it's thankless work but someone has to do it.
01:08 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/borketm
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01:21 neilv: python isn't garbage. it was just only intended to be a scripting language for the casual programmers, and things got out of hand
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01:24 lewis1711: that is a great description of python
01:24 adu: that describes most languages
01:25 adu: I'd like someone to design a huge language from the start
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01:25 lewis1711: racket seems to be able to deal with added complexity well
01:26 neilv: racket starts with scheme (a small language, but not a dumbed-down scripting one), and goes from there
01:27 lewis1711: I thought it was quite a small language until last year
01:27 neilv: java was intended to be a real app development language from the start. it got dumbed down *afterwards*
01:27 adu: how hard would it be to write a lang-module like "r6rs" for "r7rs"?
01:27 adu: neilv: srsly?
01:28 adu: neilv: pointers? references?
01:28 neilv: java was a decent language initially. then it got perverted in a few ways, mainly due to its popularity and who picked it up
01:28 lewis1711: I was going to say "I like java". but I think what I really mean is "I like the JVM and netbeans"
01:28 adu: are you talking about sun?
01:28 adu: or oracle?
01:29 neilv: way before oracle
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01:29 adu: neilv: who picked it up then?
01:30 neilv: the problem is, it got picked up by the kinds of developers who were traditionally corporate MIS programmers, who were usually the clerk typists of software development
01:31 neilv: and it got wildly popular. so some good things were done, but some dumb things. and the development community, percentage-wise, is probably the least-smart i have ever seen
01:31 adu: hmm
01:31 adu: sounds like that enterprise integration stuff
01:31 neilv: contrast with something like haskell, where you there is a big bar to entry, and people *don't* do it because they want a job
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01:32 neilv: going back to racket, racket could appeal to the masses, but the trick is to elevate the masses, rather than dumb-down
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01:33 adu: I think the biggest barier to that is consistant module support
01:33 adu: for scheme that is
01:34 neilv: i think it's a bit more complicated than that
01:35 neilv: i had a book project that i thought would do just the right thing to appeal to large numbers of the right kind of developer for racket, but got burnt out on that idea
01:35 adu: ouch
01:35 lewis1711: there are a few things in racket that make me think "hmm.. why?"
01:35 lewis1711: like accessing members of a struct
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01:36 lewis1711: (a few things compared to... half the things in just about every other language :P)
01:36 adu: I also think that racket and clojure should cross-polinate :)
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01:37 lewis1711: neilv, as a partial member of the dumbed down masses, the biggest issue for me is that noone uses it. I mean there's the docs, and you guys, but for other langauges I can google stuff and get 100s of ways of doing something. where as often in racket I am really lost. so it's like a critical mass thing
01:37 lewis1711: once it's pointed out how to do something it's often pretty simple
01:38 neilv: lewis1711: yes, the critical mass is understood
01:38 adu: I wonder what percentage of programmers would remain if google went out of business
01:39 adu: I would certainly stop being a php programmer
01:39 neilv: you mean, if google sealed the exits and set their employees on fire? how many programmers would be left alive outside?
01:39 adu: although, I do have a backup of php docs somewhere
01:39 neilv: oh
01:40 adu: I mean if it was impossible to google library docs, how many programmers would continue to function
01:40 neilv: lots. it's not that hard. lots of people taught themselves to program from paper books when they were 12
01:41 adu: so you think 90%?
01:41 lewis1711: adu, I don't think I would. or at least I'd find it really hard do begin with. maybe I'd adapt
01:41 neilv: also, people used work places where they would ask coworkers questions, rather than google
01:42 adu: I think closer to 60%
01:42 adu: I must be a pessimist
01:42 neilv: so, the more knowledgeable developers were even more valuable, as gurus
01:43 neilv: not only could they make better things than others, but others relied on them for help
01:43 lewis1711: is IRC down as well in this scenario? :)
01:44 adu: I have backup docs for CLHS, scheme (and 7 impl-specific docs) python (2 & 3) posix (susv3 & susv4), java, java3d, grails, and a bunch of HTML/CSS specifications
01:45 adu: just in case W3C goes out of business
01:46 neilv: you also need a really good faraday cage, for the emp
01:46 lewis1711: like the software equivalent if someone stockpiling ammunition in an underground bunker
01:46 adu: neilv: good point
01:46 adu: lewis1711: basically
01:47 adu: also, now google will never know what I'm working on :)
01:49 adu: lewis1711: no, I didn't say "if internet goes down", just "google out-of-business"
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01:50 adu: and the most likely scenario for the internet going down is just the DNS servers, which means you might be able to continue with pure IP
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01:52 adu: so stockpileing IP address might also be prudent
01:52 neilv: actually, i just thought of a prepper connection for racket
01:53 neilv: but it's complicated to explain without giving the wrong idea
01:53 adu: then don't, *they might be watching*
01:53 adu: lol
01:54 neilv: it's not the crazy gun-nut kind of prepper connection, but a long explanation, and i have to get back to kindle hacking
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01:55 adu: hey I resemble that remark
01:55 adu: not the crazy part, of course
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02:58 lewis1711: I've been doing way too much java recently. time to write a little utility program in racket.
03:03 lewis1711: is there anyway to filter out the directories from "directory-list"?
03:05 lewis1711: (filter file-exists? (directory-list))
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03:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/sZC40A
03:12 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c298062 Matthew Flatt: racket/match: add doc note on `for-syntax' exports
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03:13 Cryovat: lewis1711: Sure you don't need a factory with that? ;)
03:14 lewis1711: LOL
03:14 Cryovat: Sorry, it's too easy to take cheap shots at Java ;)
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03:15 Cryovat: I'm looking forward to the day you can write Android apps in Clojure
03:19 lewis1711: racket has made me too xenophobic against other lisps. sometimes I go to try them but then I'm like "no contracts? unit tests? pattern matching? sequence comprehensions? meh...")
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03:21 Cryovat: Hehe
03:22 Cryovat: Personally I'd trade contracts for full Typed Racket support
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03:23 lewis1711: I always thought that they should be merged.
03:23 Cryovat: Me too
03:23 Cryovat: It feels like duplicated effot
03:23 Cryovat: *effort
03:24 Cryovat: Simple contracts are just basic types, complex ones opaque ones
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03:41 lewis1711: "(define (directory->files path)
03:41 lewis1711: (filter file-exists? (directory-list path)))" - why doesn't that work unless I've cd'd into it from racket?
03:42 lewis1711: hmm looks like I misunderstand "file exists"
03:43 Cryovat: I guess directory-list doesn't give full paths?
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03:48 lewis1711: > (car (directory-list "/home/lewis/Music"))
03:48 lewis1711: #<path:ATB - The Summer (Club Mix).mp3>
03:48 lewis1711: > (file-exists? (car (directory-list "/home/lewis/Music")))
03:48 lewis1711: #f
03:49 lewis1711: Cryovat, you're probably right
03:50 lewis1711: (file-exists? (car (directory-list "/home/lewis/Music" #:build? #t)))
03:50 lewis1711: that works ^_^
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05:43 shriphani_: Hi. I am trying to use a lang other than racket from geyser (i.e. #lang at-exp racket or #lang lazy) and Geiser always responds with racket@> ,enter "/tmp/foo.rkt"
05:43 shriphani_: get-module-code: no such file: #<path:/Applications/Racket/collects/at-exp/main.rkt> Is there a solution to this problem? I'd rather work in emacs and with a good repo as opposed to Dr. Racket
06:08 lewis1711: might be more of an emacs problem
06:08 lewis1711: dunno, give dr. racket a chance. I didn't used to like it much but it's improved muchly in the past year
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07:19 bremner: shriphani__: try geiser 0.3, it has a fix for that bug
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07:29 lewis1711: hmm I can never make out the code in the racket con videos
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07:35 lewis1711: cky, where in new zealand are you from?
07:39 bremner: anyone have an example of using match with a recursively defined type? It seems the result of matching "foo ...
07:40 bremner: is (Listof Any), which is too general
07:47 bremner: I guess one answer might be, don't use "..."
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08:20 tim-brown: folks, i'm trying to make an installation with both 3m and cgc libraries (i need cgc for embedding). what are the configure and make steps for that?
08:21 tim-brown: i keep getting errors from the make scripts along the lines of "cannot find thiscgc or thatcgc"
08:21 bremner: I could be wrong, but I have vague memories of you have to choose
08:22 tim-brown: one or the other?
08:22 bremner: that's my memory.
08:23 bremner: but I'd be happy learn otherwise.
08:24 tim-brown: there's a makefile target "plain-install-both" (and install-both) which, at least on my solaris box gives me both
08:25 bremner: oh. Well, I guess I was wrong.
08:37 tim-brown: ahh.. seems i have to "make both", then "make install-both" or "make plain-install-both"
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09:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/9cDXeQ
09:24 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 7b33298 Jay McCarthy: Adding no-cache to the Web server's default index
09:24 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d071dc4 Jay McCarthy: Clarify http/response docs re: Norman
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09:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9ZQCdw
09:50 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 62b8c7a Jay McCarthy: Typo
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10:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/K9E1fg
10:37 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c02dab0 Matthias Felleisen: typo fixed
10:37 RacketCommitBot: racket/master bcec8bc Matthias Felleisen: history updated for 5.3.2; PLEASE MERGE
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10:56 stamourv: dented42: Re arithmetic and blocking: Here's a paper that describes the implementation of futures in Racket: http://cs.northwestern.edu/~pdinda/Papers/oopsla10.pdf
10:57 stamourv: The short story is that by default, everything blocks, and the runtime system is changed gradually to block in fewer and fewer places.
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13:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to release: http://git.io/FosBgQ
13:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/release 5f8c473 Neil Toronto: Fixed major performance issue with matrix arithmetic; please merge to 5.3.2...
13:15 RacketCommitBot: racket/release 42a1012 Matthias Felleisen: history updated for 5.3.2; PLEASE MERGE...
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14:08 cky: later tell lewis1711 I'm from Auckland. As for the code in my RacketCon video, look at github:cky/rackona.git.
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14:25 samth: dyoo: does the SSL cert on pnr.racket-lang.org work for you now?
14:26 dyoo: let me test...
14:27 dyoo: ok, that's working now.  However, there is a weirdness: if I mistype 'pnr' to 'prn', the system automatically redirects me to the main racket-lang web site.  I'm not sure this default is right.
14:29 samth: dyoo: i don't get that
14:29 samth: it sends me to a site with an index listing with a single directory called `il`
14:29 dyoo: odd.  Let me see if it's just my DNS setting doing something funky on me.. :)
14:29 samth: eli: ping
14:30 samth: eli: currently, all foo.racket-lang.org requests resolve
14:30 asumu: samth: try with https
14:30 samth: eli: and they point to this weird index page with the `il` directory
14:30 asumu: samth: https://prn.racket-lang.org/ redirects to frontpage for me
14:30 dyoo: samth: thanks, yes, that's the behavior I'm seeing.
14:31 samth: eli: and with https it redirects (with a wrong cert) to the main site
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15:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/BxcyOA
15:05 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 40d2fd6 Sam Tobin-Hochstadt: Add OrderedAnd patterns, and use them in `?` patterns....
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15:29 asumu: Hmm, why would Scribble complain to me that `require` from scheme/base is undefined when I (require (for-label racket/base))?
15:29 asumu is thoroughly confused...
15:33 samth: asumu: they might be different
15:34 samth: asumu: nope, they're the same
15:34 asumu: Oh, `cond` has a broken link too. Argh.
15:39 asumu: Maybe I have an info.rkt or something broken somewhere. Ah well.
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17:07 mye: in syntax parse I need to express, a pattern matching only "Z". Just writing it literally doesn't bind a pattern variable, which I need. But using (~bind [z "Z"]) in a (pattern …) gives me pattern: action pattern not allowed here at: (~bind (z "Z")) in: (patter...ax->datum (syntax h))) (syntax->datum (syntax m)))))) (case (attribute sign) (("+") o) (("-") (...
17:08 mye: maybe I must wrap it in another pattern
17:09 stamourv: mye: ~and may be what you want.
17:09 stamourv: Something like: (~and z (~datum "Z"))
17:11 dyoo: mye: following up on stamourv: https://gist.github.com/4599022
17:11 jonrafkind: ive always hated that trick, even in match
17:12 stamourv: jonrafkind: How is that a trick?
17:12 samth: jonrafkind: how is it a "trick"?
17:12 jonrafkind: because its completely non-obvious
17:12 jonrafkind: its an abuse of (and)
17:13 samth: jonrafkind: it's hardly an abuse -- that's the primary use case
17:13 jonrafkind: i thought the primary use case was to make sure the pattern matched multiple things
17:13 jonrafkind: not to bind a variable
17:13 jonrafkind: much like `or' is used to test if it matches at least one pattern
17:14 samth: jonrafkind: i predict that `and` is used that way more than 50% of the time in the code base
17:14 jonrafkind: if the primary use case was to bind a variable then imo it should be called `bind', not `and'
17:15 jonrafkind: i mean certainly the docs do not lead to you believe the use of `and' is to bind a variable
17:15 jonrafkind: oh heh actually it does say that.. oops!
17:16 mye: ~bind should have an example in the docs, maybe it should point to ~and ?
17:17 dyoo: mye: agreed.  Actually, just from reading the docs, I have no idea how to use ~bind.  :)
17:17 jonrafkind: mye, usually I make things like that a syntax class and do z:Z
17:17 jonrafkind: if you know its going to be bound to "Z" do you really need it to be bound to a variable?
17:18 mye: jonrafkind: I have this in an ~or and compute a value based on whether it matches or not so I need to check for #f
17:18 mye: at least that is how I understand this to be done. It's my first time.
17:21 mye: I have factored the patterns into syntax classes and I got a so many for this one function already.
17:22 mye: Heres what I got to parse timestamps: https://gist.github.com/4599155
17:23 mye: the Z issue is in the offset stx class, there I must compute either 0, or positive/negative offset
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17:32 dyoo: mye: oh, sweet.  You're definitely doing things with syntax-parse that I haven't learned yet.
17:34 mye: dyoo: ragg gave me the opportunity (as in "pressing need) to loose a bit of the fear I had regarding learning syntax-parse :-)
17:35 mye: the (attribute) vs. (syntax->datum) stuff confuses me still. But having syntax-parse raise exact error messages is a god send
17:35 mye: At first I spend a couple wasted hours in the lexer trying to enforce bounded repetition for the different message parts
17:35 mye: that was horrible
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17:51 soegaard: dyoo: Could define-primitive-splicing-syntax-class be used to solve the datum problem?
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17:54 dyoo: soegaard: sorry, I have to admit that I'm very clueless on this
17:55 soegaard: okay, I'll try out my vague idea and see if it works or not
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19:07 soegaard: dyoo: Is this a solution:   (define-syntax-class drawing (pattern (~datum drawing)))     and the use _:drawing in the pattern ?
19:09 dyoo: soegaard: I think the objection is having to put annotations on all the things that should be treated literally.  But using literal-sets is funky when the syntax objects are entirely without lexical context
19:11 soegaard: A #:daturms corresponding to the #:litereals would of course be a nice solution.
19:12 mye: yes, although I found using syntax classes is what I want to use anyway for the postprocessing of the matches
19:13 dyoo: Yes.   Maybe I'm missing something in ragg, that it should have an option in parse to get its lexical context from some syntax.  Maybe something like (parse … #:lexical-context #'here)
19:15 soegaard: https://gist.github.com/4600286
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19:17 mye: soegaard: good workaround, I didn't know about _:
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19:58 mye: is this rounding error in seconds->date expected? (seconds->date (+ 0.003 (find-seconds 2 0 0 1 2 2013)))    I see 3000020 for the nanosecond part instead of 3000000
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20:11 asumu: rudybot:  (seconds->date (+ 0.003 (find-seconds 2 0 0 1 2 2013)))
20:11 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
20:11 rudybot: asumu: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: find-seconds in module: 'program
20:11 asumu: rudybot: (require racket/date)
20:11 rudybot: asumu: Done.
20:11 asumu: rudybot:  (seconds->date (+ 0.003 (find-seconds 2 0 0 1 2 2013)))
20:11 rudybot: asumu: error: car: expects argument of type <pair>; given: #f
20:11 asumu: ?
20:11 mye: :-)
20:12 asumu: I see the 20 at the end too.
20:13 mye: asumu: ok, thanks, I'll construct the date* manually. But now I must compute the day of week and day of year manually. Is there some easy way you know of by any chance?
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20:14 mye: like another way to construct dates that will fill in the day of week and year fields
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20:15 mye: but it's probably not too hard to implement, I'll have a go
20:17 asumu: mye: if you're on git HEAD, srfi/19 returns date*s now.
20:17 asumu: And doesn't require the week-day/year-day.
20:17 asumu: Or on older Rackets, srfi/19 can tell you a week-day/year-day in general.
20:17 asumu: (but different date struct)
20:17 asumu: rudybot: (date->seconds (seconds->date (+ 0.003 (find-seconds 2 0 0 1 2 2013))))
20:17 rudybot: asumu: error: car: expects argument of type <pair>; given: #f
20:18 asumu: If that worked, it would show the fraction is ignored for some reason.
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20:21 mye: ah forgot about these functions, thanks asumu for aligning them with racket!
20:22 lewis1711: would there be a way of getting the free space in a drive in racket? would me best bet be an external shell command?
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21:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/L_TGHQ
21:46 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d5fe602 Ryan Culpepper: added #:datum-literals, like #:literals but for ~datum patterns
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22:55 asumu: greghendershott: BTW, your library has a new user: https://github.com/takikawa/racket-gist
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23:00 greghendershott: asumu: Oh, cool.
23:04 asumu: greghendershott: wffi worked pretty great. Though I did have some trouble with `current-markdown-files-path`.
23:04 asumu: Because I had to set it for both phase 0 and 1 to get it to work.
23:04 asumu: (quite possibly I'm just doing something stupid :p)
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23:05 greghendershott: asumu: Yeah I was just noticing that in your code, and realizing that aspect is the least battle tested, and wondering if/how I could make that simpler in wffi itself.
23:05 greghendershott: I'm up to my eyeballs in something else right now but will definitely loop back to this. Thanks for trying it.
23:13 greghendershott: asumu: I logged this so I won't forget. https://github.com/greghendershott/wffi/issues/2  Thanks again!
23:14 asumu: NP, and thanks for writing the library. :)
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23:25 lewis1711: how do I read the output of a system command? (system) prints stuff to the screen but returns booleans
23:33 asumu: lewis1711: `process` gives you an input port to use.
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23:40 sw2wolf: hello,good afternon
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