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01:54 Sgeo: It would be fun to write code while debugging
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02:30 Sgeo: Can I somehow use the stateless web server stuff to serialize continuations for reasons other than web stuff?
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02:41 jonrafkind: should be able to
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09:51 merijn: Second Lisp learning attempt, first Racket attempt, which book/tutorial do you guys recommend? SICP?
09:57 greghendershott: merijn: How about http://htdp.org/
09:57 Sgeo really wants to be able to change code in the debugger
09:58 Sgeo: Smalltalk/Factor/CL? style
09:58 Sgeo: Well, hmm, guess not really Factor
09:59 merijn: greghendershott: Which would you say is the "faster" book? I'm already familiar with functional and imperative programming, so the speedier the basics are covered, the better
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09:59 greghendershott: merijn: Personally I used the Racket Guide.
10:00 greghendershott: And read lots of Racket code e.g. from Planet or blog posts or wherever.
10:00 merijn: I guess that's worth a shot too
10:02 didi: merijn: Do not read SICP if your intention is to learn Lisp. You might get frustrated.
10:03 merijn: didi: My intention is to learn Racket
10:03 didi: merijn: Even worse then.
10:04 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
10:04 greghendershott: I also learned a lot from subscribing to the Racket mailing list. Sometimes asking questions, but even more from reading other Q&A.
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10:07 Sgeo: The Racket Guide is not a thorough introduction to Racket, you also need to look through the Reference
10:07 Sgeo: A lot of cool things you'll miss otherwise
10:08 Sgeo: Although I still don't understand continuation barriers and prompts
10:08 didi: There are lots of awesome documentation by the community. greghendershott is one of them.
10:10 tim-brown: merijin: i've been solving problems on http://projecteuler.net in racket it's made me think about the language, programming, and maths
10:10 tim-brown: just in case you find yourself adrift without something to solve
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10:13 Sgeo: Escape continuations can't be built on top of reset/shift, can they?
10:13 merijn: I'm of the opinion that Project Euler is a pretty terrible tool to teach programming. It's great for learning numerical things, but doesn't expose you to "common" programming things
10:13 tim-brown: fair enough... keeps me off the streets, though
10:13 Sgeo: " Racket?s support for prompts and composable continuations most closely resembles Dorai Sitaram?s % and fcontrol operator [Sitaram93]."
10:13 Sgeo: Maybe I should read that reference
10:15 Sgeo: Assuming it's freely available somewhere :/
10:15 Sgeo: It is
10:16 didi: Sgeo: You can always download the 4 page article for $ 39.99.
10:16 Sgeo: I downloaded it from http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.22.7256
10:18 samth: Sgeo: the vast majority of papers on racket are available here: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/
10:18 Sgeo: Cool, thank you
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10:22 Sgeo: samth, are reset/shift actually limited?
10:23 samth: Sgeo: what do you mean by 'limited'
10:23 Sgeo: As in, Racket continuations able to express things that reset/shift can't?
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10:28 Sgeo: Ok, run/fcontrol sounds cool
10:28 Sgeo: How does it apply to the world of Racket?
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10:31 merijn: Anyone here have experience with Racket en slimv? (the vim version of slime)
10:31 didi: merijn: I don't think Racket run with Slime.
10:33 didi: merijn: I use geiser (emacs) for that.
10:35 merijn: slimv supposedly support Common Lisp/Clojure/Scheme, so I think it should work?
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10:36 didi: merijn: I don't know slimv, but you have to have a piece of software running at the implementation end to make Slime communicate with it.
10:38 Sgeo: Even the Slime's CL stuff requires implementation-specific stuff
10:43 Sgeo: call-with-continuation-prompt's argument list makes no sense
10:43 Sgeo: It takes optional and rest args?
10:43 Sgeo: How does that work, how does it distinguish between being given the optional arguments and being given two arguments to pass to the passed-in proc?
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10:59 tobi: Sgeo: AFAIK all optional arguments must be given if rest arguments are used, can't find where this was stated atm
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11:01 tobi: Sgeo: http://www.mail-archive.com/users@racket-lang.org/msg14211.html
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11:10 asumu: Sgeo: Racket's continuation operators are more low level than either fcontrol or shift/reset and can express any of them.
11:11 asumu: Plain shift/reset probably can't express the handler variants in Racket, but I don't know.
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11:15 asumu: Also the same fringe example in Dorai's paper is interesting to puzzle over.
11:15 asumu: The one that uses call/cc in particular is kinda horrific. :)
11:15 Sgeo: "in particular, when an exception handler is called, a continuation barrier prohibits the continuation of the handler from capturing the continuation past the exception point."
11:16 Sgeo: Does this mean that from an exception handler it's impossible resume past the exception?
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11:19 asumu: Sgeo: no, it means the exception handler can't capture the continuation that's being aborted by the exception (I think)
11:20 Sgeo wants CL-style resumable conditions
11:20 asumu: rudybot: (call-with-exception-handler (lambda (x) (call-with-composable-continuation (lambda (k) k))) (lambda () (raise "an exception"))
11:20 rudybot: asumu: It seems like `call-with-exception-handler` will raise an error with the value returned by its first argument, rather than simply evaluate to that value.
11:20 asumu: rudybot: (call-with-exception-handler (lambda (x) (call-with-composable-continuation (lambda (k) k))) (lambda () (raise "an exception")))
11:20 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
11:20 rudybot: asumu: ; stderr: "exception raised by exception handler: call-with-composable-continuation: cannot capture past continuation barrier; original raise called (with non-exception value): \"an exception\"\n"
11:20 asumu: There we go. Not allowed.
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11:31 Sgeo: What prevents a thread from making a new security guard for itself by specifying the root security guard as the new security guard's parent?
11:32 Sgeo: Although hmm, I guess parameters don't allow for finding the root value?
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13:03 ozzloy: https://gist.github.com/4512711 why is the exception not caught with exn:fail:syntax? ?  from this page in the guide http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/syntax-case.html
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13:06 carleastlund: ozzloy: Your exception handler is set at run-time, but the error is happening at compile-time.
13:07 ozzloy: ah, curses!
13:08 ozzloy: ok, so how do you write unit tests for this?
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13:09 ozzloy: is there a compiletime check-exn?
13:09 carleastlund: Unit tests for macros are tricky.  One way to do it is by explicitly calling eval or expand.
13:11 Sgeo: Can Geiser resume from a thrown exception?
13:12 ozzloy: how'd you know i was using geiser?
13:12 ozzloy: oh you're askng for yourself, aren't you
13:12 Sgeo didn't, and was asking a question that seemed tangentally related by very relevant to what I might consider using Geiser for
13:12 Sgeo: Yes, I'm asking for myself
13:13 Cryovat: ozzloy: Look at your bookshelf
13:13 Cryovat: See that shiny thing between those two books at the top left?
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13:13 Cryovat: That's how he knows
13:13 ozzloy: what do you mean "resume from a thrown exception"?  you still get a prompt at which you can type in exprs
13:13 didi: Sgeo: I don't think Racket has a debugger capable of doing such thing.
13:13 ozzloy: Cryovat, how'd you know i have a bookshelf!
13:14 Cryovat: :D
13:14 Sgeo: didi, :(
13:14 Sgeo: Does Chicken Scheme have such a thing?
13:14 didi: Sgeo: You can ask mario-goulart.
13:14 dented42: is there a way to tell DrRacket that my macro has a body argument and should be indented as such? (like Macintosh Common Lisp)
13:17 ozzloy: when i do "(syntax-case stx ()\n" emacs indents to under the "()".  how do i make it indent to under the 'y'?
13:18 Sgeo: Racket doesn't support SRFI 12
13:18 ozzloy: i tried (put 'syntax-case 'scheme-indent-function 1)
13:18 Sgeo: And that seems to be Chicken Scheme's exception mechanism
13:18 ozzloy: anyone use emacs in here?
13:18 Sgeo: Which supports resumable exceptions
13:18 didi: ozzloy: Me.
13:19 didi: ozzloy: Here it indents below `y'.
13:19 didi: ozzloy: Are you using geiser?
13:19 ozzloy: i am
13:19 didi: That's odd.
13:19 didi: I can't reproduce it.
13:20 ozzloy: maybe something in my .emacs is screwing it up
13:20 ozzloy: didi, what about "(module+ test\n"
13:21 didi: ozzloy: `o'
13:21 ozzloy: did you make it do that?
13:21 ozzloy: or is it just magical
13:21 didi: ozzloy: I'm using geiser from git.
13:22 ozzloy: i'm using geiser from package-install
13:23 ozzloy: i'll have to mess with that later
13:23 ozzloy: gtg
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13:23 ozzloy: didi, thanks for checking that out
13:23 didi: ozzloy: Nah. :^)
13:23 ozzloy: (pun intended)
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13:39 didi: Sgeo: There is a great show about Racket on Floss Weekly. On that interview, Matthew talks a little about the debugger: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJGV7HaTdbg&feature=player_detailpage#t=2338s>. It's about one year and a half old, so I don't know how much has changed.
13:39 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/d5ffufm
13:43 Sgeo: :/
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14:44 asumu: Sgeo: it is trivial to do resumable exceptions in Racket.
14:45 Sgeo: Not as trivial to make a culture oriented around them
14:46 asumu: That's true, but it's unclear how much benefit most Racket programs get from them.
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15:02 didi: If you already follow the 'Run' paradigm that DrRacket uses, I think not much.
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15:20 Sgeo: The 'Run' paradigm? As in, the time-consuming and annoying "Restart the whole program for every minor change" paradigm?
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15:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 18 new commits to release: http://git.io/b5i6qw
15:43 RacketCommitBot: racket/release 91bcf2a Robby Findler: adjust drracket so check syntax can add its preferences itself...
15:43 RacketCommitBot: racket/release afceaa2 Jay McCarthy: Removing exotic ports for PNRs...
15:43 RacketCommitBot: racket/release aff9f6f Asumu Takikawa: Disallow duplicate type variable declarations...
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16:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yoyM8w
16:01 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 69ae77a Danny Yoo: Gracefully handle the case where the token stream just contains the END token and an error occurs.
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16:07 dyoo: ozzloy: with regards to compile-time tests.  Maybe something like this may help?  https://github.com/dyoo/ragg/blob/master/ragg/test/test-errors.rkt
16:08 ozzloy: dyoo, that looks great!
16:08 dyoo: Essentially, call 'compile' directly.  To make it a little easier, I write a 'check-compile-error' to do the messy work.
16:09 dyoo: The quasisyntax and unsyntax stuff in the check-compile-error is just there so when bad things happen, the source locations are pointed at the right thing
16:09 ozzloy: icic
16:10 dyoo: Otherwise, it starts unhelpfully pointing at the source code to check-compile-error, rather than the uses of check-compile-error.  :)
16:10 ozzloy: how do you run your tests?
16:10 dyoo: I just run the module.  I haven't been too systematic about collecting them formally into a suite or so: I just keep a set of "test" modules, and I have one "test-all.rkt" that requires them all.
16:10 ozzloy: raco test test/test-errors.rkt ?
16:11 ozzloy: oic
16:11 ozzloy: then you do `racket test/test-all.rkt'
16:11 ozzloy: ?
16:11 dyoo: yeah
16:11 ozzloy: icic
16:12 ozzloy: is there a more well defined structure for racket projects?
16:13 ozzloy: right now i have lib/foo/bar.rkt which includes test/foo/bar.rkt and i run raco test lib/foo/bar.rkt
16:14 asumu: ozzloy: you mean like a way to set up test infrastructure? I usually make a main test driver that requires test submodules from all of my tests.
16:14 dyoo: I believe the current state of the art is to follow the conventions that 'raco test' expects, which is to have test submodules.  http://docs.racket-lang.org/raco/test.html
16:15 dyoo: ragg unfortunately doesn't quite do this yet because I'm a bad person
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16:15 ozzloy: yeah, in lib/foo/bar.rkt i have (module+ test\n(include ../../test/foo/bar.rkt)) which is kinda janky
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16:16 ozzloy: so i have a test submodule, but i take all the tests and put them in a different file so i can have tons and tons of tests, but still have short code
16:17 dyoo: ozzloy: another example of compile-time tests:
16:17 ozzloy: asumu, so you have a top level test.rkt which includes tests in test/* ?
16:17 dyoo: ozzloy: https://github.com/dyoo/arctangent/blob/master/test-arctangent.rkt
16:18 dyoo: but that one is a bit messier to read unfortunately
16:18 ozzloy: ic
16:20 ozzloy: yeah, i think it will take me some guide reading to have enough background to read this
16:20 dyoo: ozzloy: reading your code now… don't use "scheme/base", use racket/base
16:20 ozzloy: arctangent is your arc -> racket compiler?
16:21 ozzloy: my code?
16:21 ozzloy: oh from earlier
16:21 dyoo: https://gist.github.com/4512711
16:21 dyoo: 
16:21 dyoo: yeah
16:21 dyoo: scheme/base is one of those really old deprecated things, and should have died ages ago
16:22 ozzloy: it came up from a google search of the error message
16:22 dyoo: Yup.  Good for peer review to catch these sort of things.  :)
16:22 ozzloy: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ryanc/macro-patterns/error_unbound-in-transformer-env.html
16:22 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/chuzja9
16:22 dyoo: ah.
16:23 dyoo: then we'll have to send a patch to ryanc to fix it
16:23 ozzloy: it does say "Version: 4.2.1" in the upper right hand corder
16:23 ozzloy: corner*
16:23 ozzloy: that's a weird typo
16:23 ozzloy: i have a stuffed nose, i think i thought about myself saying it out loud
16:24 ozzloy: brb
16:26 dyoo: ozzloy: here's a revised version of your gist that should do the test: https://gist.github.com/4514083
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16:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/o2eoow
16:26 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9b1b15d Ryan Culpepper: fix missing argument...
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16:31 dyoo: ozzloy: here's a revised version of your code with a few more tests, plus using syntax/parse to let it do most of the hard work: https://gist.github.com/4514112
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16:57 mye: I want to talk to syslogd with racket. Has someone here done this? Or parsed the log files? I'll probably use a socket, have to speak the syslog protocol. The built in stuff can log to syslog, but appears to be written in C.
16:59 mye: Do I now go read rfc5424 and start hacking? Better ideas?
17:00 samth: mye: go forth and hack!
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17:04 neilv: mye: can't the racket logger write to syslog now?
17:04 mye: neilv: I want to read too though :-)
17:05 neilv: ok, i think you need to hack. but the protocol should be simple
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17:07 bartbes: hmm, that makes me wonder
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17:07 bartbes: I've never tried this with a scheme, how would you handle binary data?
17:08 bartbes: I mean, you can't just do some pointer arithmatic and unchecked casting
17:08 didi: bartbes: You can have byte ports.
17:08 bartbes: I vaguely remember those..
17:09 bartbes: still, you'd have to manually implement things like float parsing, right?
17:09 neilv: you can also read blocks of bytes, pick out subbytes, do bitwise operations on them, etc
17:10 didi: bartbes: Well, it depends on how you decide to represent a float, I guess.
17:10 neilv: if you don't need the full ieee resolution, you can use racket procedures to do the convertion, iirc
17:10 bartbes: the ieee..
17:11 bartbes: 754 floats
17:11 neilv: i think i ended up implemented ieee parsing recently
17:11 bartbes: yeah, I remember doing that in lua
17:12 bartbes: nothing more than converting to character codes and plain old math
17:12 bartbes: was a lot of fun, though
17:12 bartbes: imagine it does get boring after a couple of times
17:12 jonrafkind: is there a way to make secref use the word 'chapter' instead of 'section' ?
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17:13 neilv: for some unknown reason, mediafile is not in google - neither the package on the planet server, nor on my web site. even though both went up in late november
17:15 neilv: http://doc.racket-lang.org/reference/generic-numbers.html?q=floating-point-bytes-%3Ereal%20#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._floating-point-bytes-~3ereal%29%29
17:15 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/bmkkfyq
17:16 bartbes: neilv: oh nice
17:17 bartbes: I think I should ask whether racket can make food as well, since every time I ask something in here it is followed by a link to the docs, to exactly the what I need
17:18 neilv: and in return, racket eats your life
17:18 didi: bartbes: Wait until 3D printing matures a little more.
17:19 bartbes: hehe
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17:34 ozzloy: dy<tab>
17:34 ozzloy: dang
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18:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Hj9lQw
18:16 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 2a1f702 Sam Tobin-Hochstadt: Fix XREPL logging printer to handle new logger name field....
18:16 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 1a678bd Sam Tobin-Hochstadt: Fix parsing of `maybe-optimize` result....
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18:51 asumu: Looks like I may have succesfully made SRFI/19 and racket/date cooperate...
18:52 danl-ndi: is there any way to ensure namespace-require uses compiled modules?
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19:00 greghendershott: asumu: Didn't I just read a blog post about that recently …?
19:00 greghendershott: Oh right there was a Racket tweet about it: http://terohasu.net/blog/2013-01-06-racket-time-conversion.html
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19:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 54 new commits to master: http://git.io/WfJ_ow
19:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master fa2cba1 Vincent St-Amour: Abstract out OC sandboxing.
19:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master a65d753 Vincent St-Amour: Log output generated when OC expands/runs programs....
19:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 5d4bbfa Vincent St-Amour: Abstract out right file filtering.
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19:16 pygmalion: I'm fairly new to Racket/LISP and have a question that I think I have an idea of the answer to but need a bit of guidance on. In other languages if I wanted to have a program that read in a config file I would use some sort of serialization to convert what I needed to store in it back and forth between the file system and information that my program could use.
19:17 asumu: greghendershott: yeah, that prompted me to try to fix things a little bit.
19:17 pygmalion: But, presumably, in Racket, it would be quite preferable to just use s-expressions as my config format in some way, writing them out and reading them in as data.
19:17 asumu: pygmalion: you can serialize Racket data. See racket/serialize
19:17 asumu: rudybot: (require racket/serialize)
19:17 rudybot: asumu: Done.
19:18 stamourv: pygmalion: Agreed, using s-expressions and `read' make a lot of things very easy.
19:18 asumu: rudybot: (deserialize (serialize (list 5 3 (vector "foo"))))
19:18 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: (5 3 #("foo"))
19:18 stamourv: But, as asumu says, serialization can be nice too, especially if you have data that's not s-expression shaped, like structs, or hashes.
19:19 pygmalion: Aha sure. So it just depends on how involved my config format needs to be I guess.
19:19 pygmalion: And then I just read and write to a file in-channel or out-channel.
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19:19 greghendershott: asumu: Ah, that would be nice. I haven't worked much with dates, lately, but I did early on in learning Racket and it was a bit of a distraction back then. That would be great.
19:19 stamourv: pygmalion: Ports would be the Racket equivalent of what you call channels.
19:19 asumu: greghendershott: yeah, though I'll leave the task of writing a really good time library to someone else. SRFI-19 will do for now.
19:20 stamourv: Racket channels are for communicating between threads.
19:21 greghendershott: asumu: Yeah I suspect you are wise not to start down that road. :)
19:21 stamourv heads home.
19:21 pygmalion: stamourv: Right right, sorry. Terminology confusion. Thanks for your help!
19:22 stamourv: No problem!
19:22 stamourv: See you later, heading out for dinner, now.
19:22 pygmalion waves
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19:53 pygmalion: Is it a known issue that `raco exe foo.rkt` requires sudo on a Mac? Or perhaps a peculiarity of my installation?
19:57 asumu: pygmalion: that seems odd. Any specific error?
20:00 pygmalion: It's open-output-file is failing claiming permission denied on the destination file (but it still creates an empty file).
20:00 pygmalion: I'm thinking it's related to this: l
20:01 pygmalion: ahttps://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2011-June/046087.html
20:13 asumu: Looks like it was already fixed, but for the next release.
20:13 asumu: You can try downloading a pre-release tomorrow or so and see if it's fixed.
20:14 asumu: Err,
20:14 asumu: Those e-mails were a while ago.
20:14 pygmalion: Well that mail was from Jun 2011, will it still not have made it into a release?
20:14 pygmalion: Right haha.
20:14 asumu: (I saw the "5 hours ago" in the e-mail and got confused)
20:14 pygmalion: I just discovered that I'm running 5.2, so I'm going to upgrade to 5.3.1 and see if it's been fixed.
20:14 asumu: It should be in the release. What version are you running? Ah.
20:14 asumu: That's probably it.
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21:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/xIFaSw
21:22 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d95be2e Asumu Takikawa: Fix error typo...
21:22 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 2ac6615 Asumu Takikawa: Use correct parent for date* in makeexn...
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