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01:25 sw2wolf: ping
01:28 Sgeo_: png
01:28 Sgeo_: *pong
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01:54 asumu: http://terohasu.net/blog/2013-01-06-racket-time-conversion.html
01:54 asumu: (probably something like these should be in the stdlib)
02:12 Sgeo_ wonders if Factor's date stuff is generally good
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02:29 shriphan`: hi. I have a question about running the racket web-server with apache. Say I want to host my webapp at http://shriphani.com/racket-blog, what should I mention in the RewriteRules
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05:21 tim-brown: does the version number of the nightlies change, or will it be version 5.3.2.1 throughout the near future?
05:42 mye: tim-brown: afaik it changes from time to time
05:43 tim-brown: oh... that often, then :-)
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05:50 mye: possibly changes from one checkout/nightly to the next
05:50 mye: that's what I meant
05:50 mye: if you have planet1 packages you'll notice when developing with a new version :-(
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05:57 tim-brown: it just seems to have been stuck at 5.3.2.1 for a while, although the "updated on..." string reads "wednesday jan 10" (and before it has read tuesday, monday, etc)
05:59 Cryovat: I seem to remember eli being the version number guy
05:59 Cryovat: Maybe he got lazy ;)
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06:16 eli: Cryovat: I'm not the one who actually increments it
06:17 eli: tim-brown: 5.3.2.1 is from about 2 days ago
06:17 tim-brown: eli: and the code hasn't changed since?
06:17 tim-brown: (in the nightlies)
06:17 eli: Huh?
06:18 eli: The version isn't bumped on every change in code, of course.
06:18 eli: That's what the repo sha1 is for
06:19 tim-brown: indeed. what would cause 5.3.2.1 to change to 5.3.2.2?
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06:19 eli: A change at the core which makes bytecode (.zo) files incompatible
06:20 tim-brown: ah
06:20 eli: And in some cases other significant changes -- like the bump to 5.3.2.1 which happened because we created the release branch for 5.3.2
06:21 eli: But I don't know of any serious project which uses a proper version number which gets bumped on each and every code change.
06:23 tim-brown: you're right... it's a bit of a silly question, looking back at it
06:25 tim-brown: it's just that over christmas, i wansn't so sure whether any development was being done; and i have had experiences where the nightlies were not updated because of some serious failure to to build them. i just shouldn't have been looking to the version number to reassure me of progress!"
06:29 eli: tim-brown: so you have two issues there:
06:29 eli: (1) is there any new developements?
06:29 eli: A: see the commit log at http://git.racket-lang.org/plt or https://github.com/plt/racket/commits/master
06:29 eli: (2) are the nightly builds happenning?
06:30 eli: A: see the bottom of http://pre.racket-lang.org/ for the most recent build date
06:32 shriphan`: hi. can anyone help me with running a racket-webapp on my server ?
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06:35 tim-brown: eli: thanks
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10:16 greghendershott: To refer to all of ()[]{}, is there some word or phrase that's pithier than "parentheses-like delimiters"?
10:23 carleastlund: greghendershott: "delimiters" "paired delimiters" "s-exp delimiters" "Racket delimiters" "Scheme delimiters" "LISP delimiters" "parenthetical delimiters" "parens of all shapes" ...  I don't know that there's a canonical phrase, but there's lots of options.
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10:26 greghendershott: carleastlund: Thanks. I want a variable name where people wouldn't roll their eyes (how come you called it `the-parenthesis-like-delimiters` when you could have just called it `the-XXXs`?)
10:26 greghendershott: Sounds like maybe I want racket-delims or paren-ish
10:39 samth: greghendershott: i say "parens"
10:40 samth: and "round/square/curly parens" when i need to distinguish a particular variety
10:40 samth: or "braces/brackets"
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10:44 greghendershott: samth: Thanks. "Parens" makes sense because AFIK Racket is a bit like Stephen Colbert: "It doesn't see shape". The choice is stylistic. I just wanted some name that was a reminder that []{} are also members of the club.
10:48 Sgeo: Racket macros can in fact see the shape of parentheses if they choose
10:51 greghendershott: Sgeo: Yep. But in general Racket is agnostic about the shape.
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10:52 greghendershott: e.g. the new math library, there was some discussion whether array literals should treat [] specially and the judgment was let's avoid that. Caveats: IIRC and IIUC.
10:53 greghendershott: And carleastlund has a style making greater use of {} and simpler indentation. (Again IIUC.)
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10:54 carleastlund: Yup: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2012/09/i-write-funny-lookin-racket-code.html
10:59 didi likes the monotony of There Are Only Parentheses
11:00 asumu: I like using {} in Redex to pun on syntax.
11:01 Sgeo: racket-clojure uses it ... badly
11:01 Sgeo: Any implementation of a Clojure-like language in Racket really does need a new reader, I think
11:01 greghendershott: At first I found it annoying to type e.g. (let ([x 1]) ….) but it's really grown on me. It just helps my brain parse chunks of code better, writing and reading. Read e.g. elisp makes me frown.
11:01 asumu: Sgeo: patches accepted.
11:01 Sgeo: asumu, wait what? Are you takikawa?
11:02 asumu: That is my last name. :)
11:02 Sgeo: Ah
11:02 Sgeo: I filed an issue
11:02 Sgeo: about it
11:02 carleastlund: My personal preferences: Parentheses are okay for things differentiated by identifiers (expressions, definitions, match patterns, etc).  Things like let bindings, etc., I like some kind of syntactic clue of what it is.  Just saying "syntax-parameterize", for instance, doesn't tell you why you're about to see a mess of parentheses.  Is that a higher order application?  When I write (syntax-parameterize {[some stuff] [other things]} body), I've put in a
11:02 carleastlund: cue that { ... } is a special form argument to syntax-parameterize, with [multiple] [clauses] in it.
11:03 didi: greghendershott: I don't get the fondness for `[]' but that's OK.
11:03 greghendershott: OTOH I'm seduced by Clojure's style. If we know things will be pairs, do we _really_ need to paren them?  I like Racket's (hash k0 v0 k1 v1 …) for example.
11:03 Sgeo: greghendershott, it's convenient for writing macros based on pattern matching, I guess?
11:04 greghendershott: Yes but with syntax-parse these days, I'm not sure that's true anymore?
11:04 Sgeo doesn't know anything about syntax-parse
11:04 carleastlund: greghendershott: with [ ... ], it's much easier to programmatically manipulate those pairs as elements.  Control-Meta-T in Emacs, for instance, will nicely swap a []-delimited pair to reorder them.  Without [], it's up to you to maintain the grouping.
11:05 greghendershott: carleastlund: Good point. Although I suppose some elisp could do a swap-every-2-things.
11:05 asumu: Or if you use paredit/vim. I like being able to delete a binding pair with 'dab'.
11:06 greghendershott: What is vim?
11:06 greghendershott: ^ jk
11:06 carleastlund: greghendershott: (I keep writing greghendershoot, my fingers have bad autocorrect) Sure, but with the way some macros use keyword arguments, I start to need context-sensitive "swap these X things on the left with these Y things on the right".  My sexps are losing their structure...
11:06 asumu: greghendershott: it's an editor that's available in the emacs OS.
11:07 greghendershott: asumu: l0l
11:07 greghendershott: carleastlund: Sorry, freenode wouldn't let me register gh, gwh, etc.
11:07 carleastlund: greghendershott: so register greghendershoot!  ;-)
11:08 greghendershott: carleastlund: so register mr-smarty-pants :)
11:08 greghendershott: My last name sucks. I hated ordering things by phone, even before web stores.
11:09 greghendershott: "No, that's one G on Greg, two Ts on Hendershott, and FML"
11:09 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
11:10 greghendershott: Anyway re parens I like the Racket style and the Closure style, both for different reasons.
11:11 carleastlund: My first and last names both suck.  I get stuck with things like Karl Eastland.  I've told people my name in person and had them, looking at me, write down "Carol".  But even weirder, many people mishear "Carl" as "Paul".  Which is very awkward, because that's my brother's name.
11:13 Sgeo: My last name is Gold. In middle school, needed the librarian to write down my name for some sort of pass. I said "Gold", she asked "man?". I somehow thought she was asking if I was a man, to which I said yes, of course.
11:13 Sgeo: So she writes down "Goldman"
11:13 greghendershott: carleastlund: Maybe you and I should emulate Prince. But I call dibs on λ
11:13 carleastlund: Yeah, my dad's first name is Chris.  People love to add spurious "topher" or "tian" to it.
11:14 samth: let's just say my sympathy for you all is limited ;)
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11:15 carleastlund: greghendershott: In college, for keeping score playing cards, my friends all used initials.  The "K"-sounding consonants were in high contention, with two Kevins, two Carls, and a Chris.  So we had C, K, Q, and ka and ke from Japanese.  I forget, there might have been a third Kevin with something else.  Anyway, I was Q, so that's my letter if I need one.  :)
11:15 carleastlund: samth: What, you get Pam instead of Sam?  Psssh.  ;-)
11:16 Sgeo: I love how the back button sometimes breaks GitHub :(
11:16 greghendershott: samth: Why what's so bad about Toben-Hofbräuhaus?
11:16 samth: greghendershott: if only i had my own personal Hofbräuhaus
11:17 asumu: I had a high school teacher call my name as "Asumu Alphabet". He gave up trying the very first day.
11:17 greghendershott: So carleastlund you're Q and Sgeo is Goldfinger? Cool.
11:17 carleastlund: Yep.  I give gadgets to James Bond and omnipotently harass Captain Picard.
11:18 Sgeo: I've never actually seen a James Bond movie
11:18 greghendershott: Sgeo: You could skip to Goldmember and see all of them at once, as it were.
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11:22 tim-brown: carleastlund: stop bothering samantha
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12:28 tim-brown: is the equivalent of "raco test" built into drracket?
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12:28 tim-brown: i.e. submodule test contains unit tests which can be run somehow?
12:29 tobi: submodule test is run by default
12:29 tobi: see language dialog
12:29 tim-brown: tobi: what do you mean "language dialog"?
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12:31 tobi: menu: language/choose language
12:31 dented42: tim-brown: in DrRacket, the bottom left corner of the window is a choose language popup menu dialog sort of thing
12:32 tim-brown: ah... "submodules to run..."
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12:32 tim-brown: it's a bit hidden as the only dropdown menu on the dialog
12:33 tobi: tim-brown: exactly this, perfectly hidden :)
12:34 tim-brown: tobi: stop making it sound like an undocumented feature :-)
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12:39 dented42: how much overhead do places have?
12:40 dented42: is it considered acceptable to spawn them willy-nilly?
12:41 chandler: Places are fairly high-overhead things (they're separate instances of the Racket VM living in a single process), so you wouldn't want to use more than a small multiple of the number of cores on the system of them.
12:42 dented42: ah
12:42 dented42: oh well
12:43 dented42: this means I actually have to think about how my program is structured ;)
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12:43 tim-brown: dented42: don't give up... once they're running, i've found them to be pretty well-performing
12:44 tim-brown: just keep them long lived, and use a message/event loop
12:44 dented42: that sounds rather erlang-ish
12:44 chandler: dented42: Thinking about using multiple cores/processors and optimizing for performance generally requires thinking about the structure of your program anyway :-)
12:44 Sgeo: Is there an STM implementation for Racket?
12:44 dented42: I second that question
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12:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/iFwxBQ
12:46 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 3312a80 Jay McCarthy: Working with links in collection testing
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12:48 tim-brown: dented42: from what i understand, the racket VMs are a lot more heavyweight than erlang processes. it was a disappointment to me, too -- but i still find places quite useful
12:48 dented42: yeah
12:48 (quit) ambrosebs: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
12:49 Sgeo: dented42, I note that Racket threads are lightweight, I think
12:49 dented42: Sgeo: but they aren't parallel
12:49 Sgeo: Ah
12:49 Sgeo is more interested in concurrency than parallelism
12:50 Sgeo: Haskell threads are parallel and lightweight
12:50 tim-brown: there is (are?) also futures
12:50 dented42: they are implemented as coroutines on a single thread, as I understand
12:50 tim-brown: which run on separate (OS) threads
12:50 Sgeo: Question: If they're implemented as coroutines, how is pre-emptiveness achieved?
12:51 teratorn: Sgeo: why would you want that?
12:51 tim-brown: but you have to be careful to keep things "simple" for them (see the documentation, but consing and other allocations will cause futures to stall)
12:52 mithos28: allocation can cause them to stall, not every allocation will (they have a local heapish thing)
12:52 tim-brown: there *is* a futures visualiser (which I can never spell right) which will help you out with that
12:53 Sgeo: I think for a racket-clojure project the Clojure futures won't map to Racket futures
12:53 mithos28: closure futures I think  map to racket's promise/thread
12:54 tim-brown: mithos28: i've been afraid to use anything more adventurous than fx+ with futures
12:54 tim-brown: :-)
12:54 mithos28: delay/thread that is
12:54 mithos28: tim-brown: I've only tried them a bit. Mostly for concurrent non-blocking datastructures
12:55 tim-brown: there's something very "fiddly feeling" about them :-/
12:55 mithos28: tim-brown: What do you mean?
12:55 Sgeo: I think an interesting question is how to do vars
12:55 Sgeo: I can write a macro that, if (var foo) is used within the module defining foo, (var foo) evaluates to a struct that contains a getter and setter
12:56 Sgeo: (I have written such a macro actually)
12:56 tim-brown: i feel i need to think more about them, and whether i am going to get value for money than, say, with pthreads in c
12:56 mithos28: Sgeo: You want the setter to be defined even if it is not used in the defining module?
12:57 Sgeo: The var macro expands into a use in the defining module
12:57 Sgeo: Although I imagine that Clojure code might set vars even cross-module
12:57 Sgeo: Hm
12:58 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
12:58 mithos28: Sgeo: Is the issue that the setter doesn't work?
12:58 tim-brown: night all
12:59 Sgeo: Hmm, someone in 2010 said " The refs in Clojure may be more akin to the boxes in FrTime."
12:59 Sgeo doesn't know much about FrTime
12:59 Sgeo: mithos28, issue?
13:00 mithos28: You were asking about how to do vars
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14:30 asumu: "Your security preferences do not let you open DrRacket" Ugh, Macs.
14:31 dyoo: Control-click it?
14:32 dyoo: Asumu: this sounds like Gatekeeper in action http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5290
14:32 asumu: That work, thanks.
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14:33 asumu: Actually, apparently I'm not an admin on this machine so it doesn't work. Ah well.
14:33 dyoo: but this does sound like, if we want to avoid this error message, someone needs to get an apple developer id and do the signing stuff for the build
14:33 asumu: I think there is a Racket installed somewhere.
14:33 asumu: That would be nice, I imagine.
14:33 chandler: dyoo: Same for Windows - IE will occasionally reject Racket by saying that the installer is "not commonly downloaded" and could be a virus (since it's not signed)
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14:37 asumu: I can bypass this "security" by running it via the Terminal.
14:37 chandler: Did right-clicking on DrRacket and choosing "open" not work?
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14:37 asumu: No, it asked for an admin password.
14:37 chandler: Huh.
14:42 jrslepak: security-by- uh... user-who-knows-how-to-use-terminal-probably-knows-what-he's-doing?
14:43 chandler: asumu: you can probably remove the quarantine bit from the terminal too, which would allow you to run DrRacket from the GUI
14:55 pnpuff: jrslepak: maybe, anyway better than content-control.
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15:31 asumu: Is there actually a good reason to have srfi/19 dates and racket/date dates different structs?
15:32 Cryovat: Revenge upon society?
15:32 Cryovat goes to sit in the corner
15:33 asumu: It seems like srfi/19 could just use the date* struct type and be happy.
15:33 asumu: Well, it's clearly conscious since there's a documentation note warning about this.
15:33 asumu: But I don't see any technical reason (could be missing something though)
15:33 Cryovat: Sounds like one of those situations that call for blame
15:34 Cryovat: Followed by a brisk walk to the responsible person's office
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15:35 asumu: Uhh, I also suspect our bundling of srfi/19 violates the LGPL.
15:36 asumu: Unless the blurb at the top of the file saying "this document may not be modified" is not meant to be a software license.
15:36 Cryovat: Wouldn't a srfi be considered a library of its own?
15:38 asumu: Yeah, but I think it becomes a problem when you say "this whole package is distributed under the LGPL". IANAL, of course.
15:41 samth: asumu: i'd want to look at the original context for that statement
15:41 samth: but we should revise something, certainly
15:41 samth: also, we should fix the date mess
15:42 asumu: samth: it looks like derivative works are ok by the SRFI license, but it's not clear that it's a free software license.
15:42 samth: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-19/srfi-19.scm is much less restrictive
15:42 asumu: Oh, that's good.
15:43 samth: so, i vote for you to update the file in the racket tree :)
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15:45 asumu: It looks like that file is slightly more up to date too.
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15:46 asumu: samth: is it worth making it use racket/date's struct too?
15:47 samth: that's probably worth discussing, in case there's a reason
15:47 asumu: Ok.
15:47 samth: but even better would just be to add the missing functionality to racket/date
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16:10 asumu: samth: if srfi/19 supports racket/date, we can just re-export identifiers.
16:10 asumu: Which is probably better than re-implementing or copy+pasting.
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16:11 Cryovat: Copy+pasting in DrRacket?
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17:14 samth: asumu: yes, but canonical impls should live in racket, not in srfi
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17:32 dyoo: I'm ragged finishing ragg.  :)  Released.
17:33 stamourv: :D
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17:38 dented42: should I file a bug report if my code causes a segfault?
17:39 bremner: probably
17:39 bremner: dented42: unless it uses something like FFI
17:39 dented42: no, I'm using futures.
17:39 dyoo: then definitely yes, please send the bug report
17:40 dented42: very well
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17:51 dented42: hm the racket command line simply reports a contract violation, but when I run it in DrRacket, it segfaults.
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17:51 stamourv: dented42: Yep, sounds like a bug.
17:52 dyoo: dented42: ooh.  Good to catch this before 5.3.2 comes out.  It's right in the middle of pre-release time, so hopefully the bug can get squashed by release time.
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23:31 raphie: is there a way to get all of a stuct's fields as a list?
23:31 raphie: er, the values of them
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23:47 Sgeo: What's the difference between basing a web framework on continuations and basing it on having a lightweight thread per connection?
23:49 Sgeo: raphie, using struct->vector then turning all but the first value into a list?
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