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00:35 Sgeo: I still can't help thinking that the best Lisp for a codenomic would be newLisp
00:35 Sgeo: The state of the world can be serialized to text with newLisp
00:36 Sgeo: Erm as in, like an image of the environment, except readable
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01:15 raphie: I've got an interesting problem. basically, I want to build an expression like (begin a b c) where a, b, and c are lists
01:15 raphie: however, if they are empty lists, then I do not want them in the begin
01:15 raphie: what would be the best way of excluding them if they're empty?
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01:20 jonrafkind: can you show a concrete problem
01:24 m4burns: raphie: something like (eval `(begin ,@(filter (lambda(x) (not (empty? x))) `(,a ,b ,c)))) ?
01:24 raphie: hey m4burns, that works!
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01:24 raphie: well, I'll use apply so as to do away with eval
01:26 m4burns: raphie: I'm not sure you can apply begin to a list, since begin is a macro.
01:26 raphie: oh, lemme check
01:26 raphie: oh, you can't
01:26 raphie: drat
01:26 raphie: see, I'd prefer not to use eval
01:27 raphie: screw it, I'll use nested ifs
01:27 m4burns: Well, what you're trying to do involves evaluating a variable number of s-expressions, so you might not be able to avoid it (unless I'm not understanding what a, b, and c are)
01:27 m4burns: haha, alright :P
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01:29 raphie: well, actually the problem is a bit different, lemme clarify it
01:30 raphie: I'll use my actual variable names for my own sanity
01:30 raphie: I've got the variables new-body, unreferenced, complex, and inner-let
01:30 raphie: if unreferenced and complex are empty, then there should be no begin and simply new-body should be returned
01:31 raphie: otherwise it's a begin containg new-body as the last element, with unreferenced at the beginning iff it is non-empty and inner-let between them iff complex is non-empty
01:31 raphie: phew
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01:33 m4burns: are new-body, cunreferenced, and inner-let static s-expressions known before run time?
01:34 raphie: nope, they are all defined in the surrounding let
01:35 m4burns: alright, if they are quoted data defined in a let which happens to be expressions you want to evaluate, then you'll need to use eval
01:35 jonrafkind: dont use eval. ever
01:36 raphie: settled upon this: https://gist.github.com/22faa78389c08ccc9b89, but it seems so... unoptimized
01:36 m4burns: but perhaps rethink the let. could you write this whole thing as a macro instead?
01:36 m4burns: jonrafkind: indeed
01:37 jonrafkind: raphie, can you show a larger program
01:37 jonrafkind: using begin that way makes little sense
01:37 raphie: er, it's actually not begin. it's an s-expr
01:37 raphie: (this is an intermediate step in a compiler)
01:38 m4burns: raphie: if it's just an s-expression, then disregard what i said about eval
01:38 m4burns: i thought you were doing something else
01:38 jonrafkind: oh
01:38 jonrafkind: uhm you're returning the begin expression right? so most likely you meant `(begin ,inner-let ,new-body)
01:39 raphie: yeah, whoops. sorry for all the unclarity, been working on this for hours and the whole cloudy mind has set in, haha
01:40 jonrafkind: also if you are using racket you can use match to clean that code up
01:40 jonrafkind: (match (list unreferenced complex) [(list (list) (list)) ...])
01:42 raphie: think I fixed my problem with if's
01:42 jonrafkind: also cond is a usual abstraction people use over if's
01:42 raphie: realized that inner-let should actually be made only if complex is non-empty
01:43 raphie: this compiler work is certainly testing the limits of my racket knowledge
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02:36 Sgeo: Hmm, racket/kernel is just #%kernel with REPL support
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03:07 Sgeo: for syntax
03:08 Sgeo: FOR SYNTAX!
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03:09 Sgeo: qq-and-or.rkt looks badly named, it also defines let
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04:35 sd_: hello
04:35 sd_: um can someone tell me about big-bang?
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05:34 MightyFoo: how do i "require" with-modulus from math/number-theory into a TR program?
05:34 (nick) MightyFoo -> tim-brown
05:35 tim-brown: rudybot: init typed/racket
05:35 rudybot: tim-brown: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
05:35 Cryovat: require-typed
05:35 Cryovat: Or is with-modulus a macro?
05:35 tim-brown: is a macro
05:35 tim-brown: i've require/typed mod* (et al) lovelyly
05:36 Cryovat: In that case, you might be better off writing a function in regular Racket
05:36 tim-brown: (is there a difference between require-typed and require/typed?)
05:36 Cryovat: And import it
05:36 Cryovat: Nah, I just misspelled require/typed
05:36 Cryovat: If your function is simple, you could try using it
05:36 Cryovat: And hope the type checker is happy
05:37 tim-brown: from what i've heard from Jens Sogaard, the library is written in TR
05:37 tim-brown: (unless i misunderstood him)
05:38 tim-brown: -- is it possible to import a syntax into TR?
05:38 Cryovat: In that case, you shouldn't need to use require/typed at all
05:38 tim-brown: let me peek at the source...
05:38 Cryovat: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/soegaard/math.plt/1/5/number-theory.ss
05:38 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8caj52p
05:38 Cryovat: is it this one?
05:39 tim-brown: no, it's in the math libraries in the source (nightly?) distribution
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05:39 Sgeo: What does with-modulus do?
05:41 tim-brown: sgeo: sets up a "current-modulus" parameter, so that (modulo (+ a b) m) can be written (with-modulus m (mod+ a b))
05:41 tim-brown: which becomes more useful when the expression is more complex
05:42 Sgeo: Cool
05:42 Sgeo: But needs mod+ and not just redefines + :/
05:42 Sgeo: Redefining + in the dynamic scope would be fun. A mess, probably, but fu
05:42 Sgeo: fun
05:43 tim-brown: the planet "math" package does just that... but i find it clearer this way
05:43 tim-brown: especially using "mod/" v.s. a rebound vanilla "/"
05:48 Sgeo: Hmm, does Chicken have more/better eggs than Racket has Planet packages/
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06:24 shriphan`: hi guys. I have a working oauth1.0 consumer at https://github.com/lemurproject/oauth-racket/blob/master/oauth.rkt .
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06:31 Cryovat: Nice :D
06:34 tim-brown: rudybot: init typed/racket
06:34 rudybot: tim-brown: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
06:34 tim-brown: rudybot: (:query-type/args min Fixnum Fixnum)
06:34 rudybot: tim-brown: error: #<undefined>:1:22: type-check: type name used out of context in: Fixnum
06:38 Cryovat: Sgeo: I haven't looked very hard at Chicken
06:38 Cryovat: But it feels like Racket has a much more active development
06:38 tim-brown: what's wrong with my query-type?
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06:39 noelw_away: tim-brown, what exactly are you trying to define?
06:39 noelw_away: It doesn't look like a valid type definition to me
06:39 (nick) noelw_away -> noelw
06:40 tim-brown: oh, i have a version of TR that has a type for min that resolves to : (min Fixnum Fixnum) -> Integer
06:41 tim-brown: I want to know what I would expect if I pass this and that type to min (where this and that are both, in fact Fixnum)
06:41 tim-brown: isn't that what :query-type/args is for?
06:45 noelw: rudybot: (version)
06:45 rudybot: noelw: your sandbox is ready
06:45 rudybot: noelw: ; Value: "5.2.900.1"
06:45 noelw: That's probably the issue
06:45 noelw: 5.3 is the latest
06:51 bremner: .1
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07:13 tim-brown: noelw: thanks (rebuilding a latest version -- my current one is a pre-holiday build)
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08:05 tim-brown: still having problems with :query-type/args ...
08:05 tim-brown: rudybot: init typed/racket
08:05 rudybot: tim-brown: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
08:06 tim-brown: rudybot: (:query-type/args min Fixnum Fixnum)
08:06 rudybot: tim-brown: error: #<undefined>:1:22: type-check: type name used out of context in: Fixnum
08:06 Sgeo: rudybot, init '#%kernel
08:06 rudybot: Sgeo: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: '|'#%kernel|
08:06 Sgeo: rudybot, init #%kernel
08:06 rudybot: Sgeo: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: '#%kernel
08:06 tim-brown: in my "racket -I typed/racket" REPL, I get: :print-type is only valid at the top-level of an interaction
08:06 Sgeo: rudybot, init racket/kernel
08:06 rudybot: Sgeo: your racket/kernel sandbox is ready
08:06 Sgeo: rudybot, (define a 1)
08:06 rudybot: Sgeo: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: define in module: 'program
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08:39 tim-brown: what's up with the syntax colouring (is it bracket colouring, or colour refresment?) on nightly 5.3.1.12--2013-01-06(dd161bb/a), english
08:39 tim-brown: same problem with linux and windows
08:58 tim-brown: TR's min function has the type: ... (Positive-Index * -> Positive-Index) (Index * -> Index) ... (Positive-Integer * -> Positive-Integer) (Integer * -> Integer) ...
08:59 tim-brown: this means that if i pass it (Fixnum Fixnum), I get an Integer result (which mucks up my fixnum optimisations)
09:00 tim-brown: can i "extend" the type of min to handle this? i really don't want to cast, since it seems to be a proper expensive operation
09:01 noelw: I think you want fxmin
09:02 noelw: TR should optimise that to unsafe-fxmin
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09:03 tim-brown: isn't one of the joys of TR that it will optimise numerical (i.e. Number) functions to the unsafe-fx... if it can infer that it has a (no greater than) Fixnum?
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09:08 noelw: I dunno exactly what it does and doesn't optimise, but here it seems like fxmin will do what you want
09:08 noelw: I would like to have more clarity on what exactly TR does
09:10 noelw: I suppose the optimisation coach is the way to get it
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09:33 Sgeo: I just realized something
09:34 tim-brown: optimisation coach is ok, if i don't have to de-optimise my code with casts... i'll use the fx...functions for now
09:34 Sgeo: One of the annoyances I was imagining going to have with Racket was me thinking of when I was writing a Haskell program
09:34 Sgeo: Had to keep reloading the code and redefining my test stuff at GHCi
09:34 Sgeo: But Racket makes writing test cases inline so easy I would just do that, that seems more convenient than testing at REPL probably
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09:35 anonymous: klr: happy to see you
09:35 anonymous: !
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09:46 klr: anonymous: hi
09:46 klr: btw, sry for raing at racket and BSL yesterday!
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09:48 Sgeo: Hi klr
09:48 klr: hi
09:49 klr: may i ask what the difference between funtional programming and pure functional program with lazy evulation is?
09:50 Sgeo: We can separate "pure functional programming" from the "lazy evaluation" part, first off
09:50 Sgeo: "functional programming" ... well, no two people agree on exactly what it means, which causes a lot of flame wars. But one way to look at it might be to say
09:51 Sgeo: That a function is a "pure" function if it only looks at inputs, only returns values, and, given the same input twice, will give the same output twice
09:51 Sgeo: For example, (+ 2 4), + only looks at its arguments. It doesn't look at the system time. And it will always return 6
09:51 Sgeo: pure functional programming is programming only with pure functions. This is what Haskell does.
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09:52 Sgeo: Lazy evaluation means that arguments won't be evaluated until they are needed
09:52 Sgeo: Take (+ (* 2 2) (* 3 3))
09:53 Sgeo: In an eager language (not sure of my terminology), the multiplications will occur first, and then the results will be added
09:54 Sgeo: In a lazy language, the addition will try to execute first. It needs those values, so then the multiplication gets executed, and then the addition
09:54 klr: okey
09:54 Sgeo: Let's say that, in a language with lazy evaluation, * is lazy. If one of its earlier arguments is 0, the later arguments won't get evaluated at all
09:54 Sgeo: (* 0 (/ 1 0))
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09:55 Sgeo: In an eager language, this would blow up, because the division is done first, and thus it tries to divide by 0, which is an error.
09:55 Sgeo: But in a lazy language, with * lazy in the way I described, it never bothers to do the division
09:56 klr: oh okey
09:56 klr: thanks
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09:58 Sgeo: You're welcome
10:00 Sgeo: I should note that even eager languages may have data structures that can be used in a lazy fashion
10:00 Sgeo: When you call a function on such a data structure, instead of doing the operation immediately, it may just remember what the operation was, so it can do it later
10:00 Sgeo: Clojure behaves like this with sequences
10:01 klr: okey
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10:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/YLPt2g
10:27 RacketCommitBot: racket/master b02d8af Jay McCarthy: Fixing PR13409
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10:37 Sgeo: If Racket gets me into more test-driven code, and nothing else, it will have made me a better programmer
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10:49 Sgeo: "When this test fails the message
10:49 Sgeo: current-element: 8
10:49 Sgeo: is displayed along with the usual information on an check failure."
10:49 Sgeo: No it isn't. At least the docs aren't showing up as though it is
10:49 Sgeo: http://docs.racket-lang.org/rackunit/api.html
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10:52 mithos28: Sgeo: Thats a bug. current-element is being shortened to ent:
10:53 noelw: Interesting
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12:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/h8xvYQ
12:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 84c0208 Robby Findler: add check for number of result values in ->i (that signals blame)...
12:04 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 6b681f0 Robby Findler: add planet2 info to the bug report system
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12:31 tim-brown: night all
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12:43 stamourv: anonymous: Sorry I didn't reply. I wasn't in the office.
12:43 stamourv: Do you still have a question for me?
12:47 anonymous: stamourv: ah, yes, I wanted your opinion about OOP(I've read much criticism about it). Maybe you have a good link that considering it. That was since I seen your web-page, it seems you're an expert in OOP.
12:47 anonymous: considering criticism*
12:47 anonymous: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
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12:47 asumu: anonymous: BTW, fixed that typo you pointed out, thanks.
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12:48 dyoo: btw: happy new year to everyone here. A little late, but, hope the thought counts.  :)
12:48 anonymous: asumu: the "a/the"? Thanks.
12:49 stamourv: anonymous: I think OOP is well suited for some kinds of programs (GUIs, simulation, etc.), but it's not always the best option.
12:49 didi: dyoo: \o/
12:49 stamourv: Of course, OOP means different things to different people, and there's certainly a lot of variation.
12:49 asumu: dyoo: Happy New Year mod 7!
12:50 stamourv: So, if you're interested in OOP, I recommend that, in addition to Java-style OOP (which you may already know), you also look into CLOS-style, Smalltalk-style, etc.
12:50 mithos28: anonymous: Most languages don't have tail call optimization, and thus cannot actually encode OO abstractions fathfully, http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3702
12:50 didi: CLOS is very nice.
12:50 stamourv: As for links, I can think of a couple off the top of my head, lemme look them up.
12:51 stamourv: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html
12:51 stamourv: (That's mostly about Java-style, and may not apply to others.)
12:51 anonymous excited will anyone say "Merry Christmas". It is too OT, but he is interested is there many Christians here.
12:51 anonymous: too OT to ask*
12:51 stamourv: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/
12:52 stamourv: (That one is more about practices around Java-style OOP than about OOP itself, but I think it's still an interesting read.)
12:52 stamourv: If I think of more links, I'll post them.
12:53 anonymous: stamourv, mithos28: thank you very much!
12:54 mithos28: anonymous: Note that I was a bit trolly, in the description of that link
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12:59 mithos28: Is there anyway to block a thread from being killed for a tiny period of time?
12:59 (quit) dyoo: Client Quit
12:59 mithos28: Will start-atomic and end-atomic do it for me?
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15:15 stamourv: tim-brown: Re type of `min': Sounds like a bug, I'll investigate.
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15:55 Sgeo: I wonder if the Factor IRC library should be ported to Racket
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15:57 Sgeo: Or maybe just the Chicken Scheme egg
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15:58 didi: Sgeo: rudybot is an IRC bot written in Racket.
15:58 didi: rudybot: version
15:58 rudybot: didi: f315f60
15:58 didi: rudybot: Nah. Not that.
15:58 rudybot: didi: nah, dist is just build by-products, I really need to exclude those from the indexing
15:59 didi: rudybot: source
15:59 rudybot: didi: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
15:59 stamourv: Sgeo: An IRC library would be great!
16:00 stamourv: IIRC, it's on the list of starter projects on the wiki.
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16:00 Sgeo: stamourv, iirc, it suggests starting off from... something other than Rudybot
16:00 Sgeo: Not sure why
16:00 stamourv: Yeah, eli thought starting from his bot, gabot, would be easier.
16:01 stamourv: But, IIRC, gabot's source is not on the web.
16:01 stamourv: So starting from rudybot sounds fine to me.
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17:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/E3u6bA
17:01 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 057a2bd Vincent St-Amour: Extend type of min to preserve fixnumness.
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17:01 stamourv: tim-brown: Fixed, thanks for the report!
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19:26 eli: Sgeo: rudybot was grown organically, so it's not really a good fit for something general -- especially if your goal is a *library*.
19:27 eli: My bot, however, was designed in a cleaner way, and it's much closer to something that can be library-fied.
19:27 eli: It's not available only because it got a bunch of private hacks piled up over the last few years, but it's easy to send you the whole thing if you want to clean it up or something.
19:38 ozzloy: eli, is your bot in here?
19:39 eli: gabot: slap ozzloy
19:39 eli: Yeah.
19:39 ozzloy: heh
19:44 dca: hi. in example of defining custom stream http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/streams.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket/stream..rkt%29._gen~3astream%29%29 (for lists):
19:44 dca: the method stream-rest is implemented like this:
19:44 dca: > (define (stream-rest stream)
19:44 dca: >       (rest (list-stream-v stream)))
19:44 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/amgc3c8
19:44 dca: it returns a tail of list which is a list
19:44 dca: but!
19:45 dca: here:
19:45 dca: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/streams.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket/stream..rkt%29._stream-rest%29%29
19:45 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a6fkza4
19:45 dca: stream-rest function is specified to return a stream:
19:45 dca: (stream-rest s) → stream?
19:45 dca: 
19:45 dca: 
19:45 dca: and the example  with custom list stream works ok
19:45 dca: why is it so?
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19:52 neilv: ah. apparently some planet code is waiting on a lock file that it will never get
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19:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://git.io/GcOPlQ
19:55 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 139c0ca Ryan Culpepper: improve popcount
19:55 RacketCommitBot: racket/master a6f03ee Ryan Culpepper: use popcount table
19:55 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 6815583 Ryan Culpepper: add last inserted row, # changes to simple-result info...
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20:15 asumu: dca: because a list is a stream.
20:15 asumu: In general, anything that implements gen:stream is a stream.
20:15 asumu: And will answer #t to stream?.
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20:19 asumu: ryanc's popcount commit is pretty cool.
20:20 asumu: He uses the popcount function at compile-time to create the popcount table.
20:20 dca: so both list and #<stream list> will work in "for" form?
20:22 (part) r0p
20:22 dca: but to wrap around data structures which doesn't natively implement gen:stream we stream-rest should return "stream?" type, right?
20:24 asumu: stream? responds #t to a custom stream type implementing gen:stream.
20:24 asumu: So yes, but that's not a problem.
20:26 asumu: rudybot: eval (require racket/stream) (struct foo (x) #:methods gen:stream [(define (stream-rest s) s) (define (stream-first s) 'junk) (define (stream-empty? s) #f)])
20:26 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
20:26 rudybot: asumu: error: #<undefined>:1:40: struct: unrecognized struct-specification keyword at: #:methods in: (struct foo (x) #:methods gen:stream ((define (stream-rest s) s) (define (stream-first s) (quote junk)) (define (stream-empty? s) #f)))
20:26 asumu: rudybot: (version)
20:26 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: "5.2.900.1"
20:27 asumu: Bleh. In 5.3 and up, a foo from above will respond #t to stream?.
20:27 dca: you need define-struct i guess
20:27 asumu: No, it's just that the generics library did not exist in 5.2.900.1.
20:28 asumu: It's a bogus implementation of gen:stream, but it satisfies the contract in any case.
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20:29 dca: okay. makes sense to me. thanks
20:36 Sgeo: rudybot, eval https://www.refheap.com/paste/8194/raw
20:36 rudybot: Sgeo: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8194/raw in module: 'program
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