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03:25 Sgeo: The problem that the syntax parameters seems to discuss does not occur in fully unhygienic systems
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03:26 Sgeo: If I understand it correctly
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04:06 Sgeo: Maybe I should read The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland
04:06 Sgeo: I used to use Python as my go-to language
04:07 Sgeo: Still think of it almost as my default language
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04:08 Sgeo: Bluh, what is this def-syntax thing
04:09 Sgeo: Is that an r6rsism
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05:17 Sgeo: Hey, scheme/nest exports a nest macro
05:18 Sgeo: Is that not in racket proper? Was it removed for some reason from the Racket language?
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07:02 flying_rhino: hello
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07:20 Sgeo: I hate how non-composable #%app-redefinition is. But a language like Kernel makes it easy, if I understand it right. Therefore, I must implement a Kernel-like language as a Racket language
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07:34 Sgeo: n/m
07:34 Sgeo: But there _does_ need to be a language to make composing automatic lifts easy
07:34 Sgeo: Hrm, better yet really, just define #lang applicative or something
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07:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/3huG5Q
07:45 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c07ff94 Jay McCarthy: Fixes PR13406
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07:54 bremner: I guess "raco setup -A" is not very atomic; if it has compilation errors it leaves the unpacked module there?
07:54 anonymous: Hello Everyone
07:58 bremner: anonymous: hi.
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08:30 flying_rhino: hello guys
08:31 anonymous: flying_rhino: hi
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08:31 flying_rhino: anyone considered that thing on Grok project I posted yesterday?
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08:42 Sgeo: "The syntax/module-reader library provides support for defining #lang readers. It is normally used as a module language, though it may also be required to get make-meta-reader. It provides all of the bindings of scheme/base other than #%module-begin."
08:42 Sgeo: Why scheme/base, why hasn't that been updated to racket/base?
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09:03 soegaard: Sgeo: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/syntax/module-reader.rkt
09:03 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/bfdqzze
09:03 soegaard: I think has been updated.
09:04 Sgeo: The documentation needs to be updated then
09:06 soegaard: You can submit a patch here: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/syntax/scribblings/module-reader.scrbl
09:06 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a4yctk7
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10:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/B29vWg
10:19 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 67f0af3 Matthew Flatt: fix problems with single-flonum (versus flonum) results...
10:19 RacketCommitBot: racket/master cd73a8b Matthew Flatt: math/matrix: fix some duplicate documentation tags
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14:06 Bennit: Hi
14:08 Bennit: anyone experience with connecting to an irc server?
14:08 Bennit: https://gist.github.com/4455072 # (connect "irc.freenode.net" 6667) => shows some output but doesn't request a PING so there's no PONG to be sent
14:08 Bennit: is this read-line that's blocking on input somewhere where it shouldn't or..?
14:14 ianjneu: Not sure. I don't really use frtime.
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14:16 ianjneu: Read-line reads until the end-of-line marker. What does the IRC protocol say about its end of message delimiters?
14:17 Bennit: I've tried with 'any aswell, didn't make any difference
14:17 Bennit: am thinking it might be firewall issue
14:17 Bennit: perhaps irc requires a port to be open
14:17 Bennit: on client-side
14:18 ianjneu: There is a small IRC client implementation on github I just found: https://github.com/Odaym/Rachat
14:18 Bennit: is there no option not to load the GUI? trying my racket script on some remote server that has no firewall
14:18 Bennit: via racket cli
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14:22 ianjneu: I'm not sure which GUI you're talking about
14:22 ianjneu: Does frtime open a window?
14:22 Bennit: in racket cli
14:22 Bennit: when you type (require frtime)
14:22 Bennit: not that I know of
14:23 ianjneu: just running "racket filename.rkt" causes a gui to open?
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14:26 Bennit: yes
14:26 Bennit: well
14:26 Bennit: trying to open
14:26 Bennit: (on the remote machine)
14:26 Bennit: but as I don't have a display for it
14:27 Bennit: racket > (require frtime) also does so
14:27 Bennit: so I guess you're right about it having something to do with frtime wanting to open a window
14:27 Bennit: on my local machine it just works but that's in drracket
14:28 ianjneu: Hmm. Is the point of your project to use FRP, or can you work outside of frtime?
14:30 ianjneu: I don't get any gui opening when I require frtime. What version of racket are you using?
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14:30 ianjneu: Fred is the gui extension to frtime that might have been factored out since your version.
14:32 Bennit: OK it's firewall issue, got further leaving frtime out
14:32 Bennit: (which caused the GUI startup for some reason)
14:33 Bennit: v5.2.1
14:39 Bennit: thanks, your tiny client project gets me further :)
14:39 Bennit: food now
14:39 Bennit: cya
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15:37 Sgeo: When Racket downloads from PLaneT, how secure is it? SSL?
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15:38 soegaard: What is there to keep secure :-)
15:39 Sgeo: That a MITM doesn't detect the download and put malicious code in?
15:39 soegaard: ah
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15:50 Sgeo: <kmc> SSL doesn't protect you against e.g. web server compromise
15:50 Sgeo: <kmc> ideally package signing happens on highly trusted, non-networked computers
15:52 Sgeo: <kmc> also SSL is just a shitty system in practice
15:52 Sgeo: <kmc> i can get a fake racket-lang.org cert from DigiNotar or TURKTRUST or whichever CA fucks up next
15:52 Sgeo: <kmc> you could hardcode your org's cert into your installer, though
15:53 chandler: Offline signing isn't much benefit in practice - better to rotate short-expiration signing certificates which are themselves signed by an offline CA.
15:53 bremner: hmm, that's new. "docs failure: setup: install SQLite to build documentation"
15:53 chandler: This also implies that certificate hardcoding is a bad idea; you'd want to hardcode the root CA (and ideally have one level of intermediary CA that could be revoked too).
15:54 soegaard: bremner: SQlite is now used to build the docs.
15:54 chandler: Also, while this level of signing might authenticate that the package you downloaded really did come from planet, there's a bigger question about what prevents people from publishing malicious code to planet itself.
15:54 bremner: soegaard: wacky.
15:55 samth: bremner: used for indexing
15:55 bremner: oh, I see.
15:55 soegaard: I believe the docs build faster now.
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17:50 bremner: is there any way to tell what git commit a nightly source tarball corresponds to?
17:51 mithos28: bremner: The hard way of comparing it to a bunch of like commits
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17:52 bremner: well, I guess that almost might work for the full tarball, but sounds hopeless for eg. plt-*unix.tgz
17:52 mithos28: bremner: I would guess that all the tars are made from the same commit. But that might be wrong
17:53 bremner: good point.
17:53 mithos28: look at the build log
17:53 mithos28: http://pre.racket-lang.org/build-log.txt
17:53 bremner: aha, nice.
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17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yTUZSg
17:59 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d53d3c3 Robby Findler: try to make this test's timing better behaved
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18:54 Twey: I'm doing some coding that involves a lot of hashes.  I keep finding myself writing functions like hash-map-keys (to update the keys of a hash) and hash-filter — things of the form (make-immutable-hash (some-transformation (hash->list hash))).  Are there functions like these defined already somewhere that I'm missing?
18:55 mithos28: Twey: Not that I know of. If you can provide good implementations I think they could be added to unstable/hash
18:58 Twey: Hmph.  I'd imagine there should be a more efficient way to do them given knowledge of the hash's internals.
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19:01 mithos28: Twey: Possibly, but hashes are implemented in C. So extending the primitives is complicated, I think it would be fast enough just using the exposed iterators
19:05 Twey: Hmn, okay.  Thanks.
19:07 Twey: Doesn't that require me to convert from a list, though?  I don't know of any for/hash form.
19:09 mithos28: The simplest implementation would be (lambda (h f) (for/hash (((k v) (in-hash h)) #:when (f k v)) (values k v)))
19:09 mithos28: for the filter
19:10 mithos28: hash-map-keys has the issue with two different keys becoming mapped to one.
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19:14 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FxSb7Q
19:14 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 69800aa Matthias Felleisen: batch io functions now accept 'standard-[in,out] in lieu of file name
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19:14 Twey: Oh, apparently I managed to miss for/hash.  Thanks.
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21:01 Sgeo: Ok, I did at least something
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22:12 Twey: What's the output formatting equivalent to C's width modifiers (i.e. pad with n spaces/zeroes/specified characters)?
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22:18 Sgeo: Is there any way to stick an extra bit of data onto a piece of data?
22:19 Sgeo: Such that all functions still work, except I can, by reading that bit, distinguish things?
22:19 Twey: Oh, found it — thanks anyway
22:23 dented42: when I do something like (define 'foo 2) , what is going on? because then things start to behave very strangely. When I then evaluate the expression "foo", it tells me that foo is undefined, and when I evaluate "'foo" or "(quote foo)", instead of returning "'foo" it tells me again that foo is undefined.
22:25 offby1`: dented42: I suspect you're really doing (define (quote foo) 2)
22:25 offby1`: so you've redefined the "quote" operator.
22:25 offby1`: Let's see.
22:25 offby1`: rudybot: (define 'foo 2)
22:25 rudybot: offby1`: your sandbox is ready
22:25 rudybot: offby1`: Done.
22:25 offby1`: rudybot: foo
22:25 rudybot: offby1`: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: foo in module: 'program
22:25 offby1`: rudybot: (quote foo)
22:25 rudybot: offby1`: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: foo in module: 'program
22:25 offby1`: rudybot: (quote 'foo)
22:25 rudybot: offby1`: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: foo in module: 'program
22:25 offby1`: hmm
22:25 dented42: I considered that, but then 'anything would evaluate to 2
22:26 dented42: wouldn't it?
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22:26 offby1: not sure.
22:26 offby1: anyway, you should really be doing (define foo 2)
22:27 Sgeo: Is rudybot's sandbox particularly complicated?
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22:38 offby1: depends how you're looking at it.
22:38 offby1: If you look at the code in rudybot proper: no, not very.
22:38 offby1: But the code in racket might be pretty nasty; I've never looked.
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22:39 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/lavD8g
22:39 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 87d25ba Robby Findler: adjust scribble/lp language so drracket syntax colors it properly...
22:39 RacketCommitBot: racket/master d228790 Robby Findler: change chat noir so that 'h' toggles help...
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22:50 Twey: I don't really understand the purpose of the 'updater' argument to hash-update.  What's the use of it?  It seems to receive the original value when present, else the new value?
22:51 offby1: I think it's how you tell hash-update what value to use.
22:52 offby1: so I often keep counts of things in hash tables; to increment a count, I do (hash-update h key add1)
22:52 Sgeo: Hmm. Using things as a dict would be equivalent to the Racket approach of a uniform interface for stuff, right?
22:52 Sgeo: Erm, to the Clojure approach
22:52 offby1: I think so.
22:52 offby1: dicts are unusual in racket
22:52 Sgeo: Hmm, why?
22:52 offby1: in that they're kinda generic; I can't offhand think of anything else in racket that is generic
22:52 Twey: Ugh, sorry, I think I'm in stupid mode this morning.
22:52 Sgeo: I like generic :/
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23:20 dented42: can I specify one of the teaching languages in a #lang declaration?
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23:20 mithos28: dented42: Sorta, #lang htdp/bsl should work
23:21 mithos28: There are still issues with it though
23:21 dented42: like?
23:21 mithos28: I don't know
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