00:05 Sgeo: Can I use eventspaces without using the GUI?
00:13 (join) RacketCommitBot
00:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/hbrFUw
00:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 0f26aaf Robby Findler: Adjust DrRacket to not use on-demand to populate the...
00:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 0d0503b Robby Findler: adjust sync pattern to avoid cross-thread set!
00:13 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 836ce95 Robby Findler: added section on alpha blending to 2htdp/image guide
00:13 (part) RacketCommitBot
00:14 Sgeo: o.O send isn't a function
00:14 Sgeo: I feel slightly betrayed, although I do understand why
00:15 (join) dnolen
00:29 (quit) kofno: Remote host closed the connection
00:44 Sgeo: Should all the #lang scheme stuff on PLaneT scare me?
00:44 Sgeo: Obsolete code etc?
00:44 Sgeo: unmaintained
01:03 (quit) jackhammer2022: Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/
01:03 (join) spiderweb
01:12 (join) kvda
01:40 asumu: Sgeo: PLaneT doesn't have a system for non-maintainer uploads, unfortunately. That would help get rid of obsolete code.
01:43 Sgeo: I wonder if this should be enough to scare me from using Racket..
02:03 (join) bniels
02:08 (quit) dnolen: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
02:13 (quit) eMBee: Quit: Lost terminal
02:14 (quit) ivan\: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
02:17 (quit) francisl: Quit: francisl
02:20 (join) ivan\
02:21 (join) eMBee
02:37 (join) dented42
02:40 (join) Nisstyre-laptop
02:50 (quit) serhart: Quit: Leaving.
02:58 (join) mceier
02:59 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
03:04 (quit) adu: Quit: adu
03:37 (quit) Fare: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
04:15 (join) noelw
04:33 (join) bitonic
04:55 (join) soegaard
05:12 (join) mizu_no_oto
05:14 (quit) juanfra__: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
05:14 (join) juanfra__
05:17 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
05:18 (join) mizu_no_oto
05:31 (join) kofno
05:36 (quit) kofno: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
05:36 (join) myx
05:37 (join) micro_
05:54 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
06:06 (join) mizu_no_oto
06:09 Sgeo: Is the stateless web server a possible security problem?
06:09 Sgeo: What could a sufficiently clever tamperer do to the continuation?
06:14 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
06:19 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard
06:27 noelw: Not much of a security hole
06:30 (join) didi`
06:31 (nick) didi` -> didi
06:32 (join) kofno
06:35 (quit) myx: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
06:37 (quit) kofno: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
06:44 (join) jeapostrophe
06:45 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host
06:45 (join) jeapostrophe
06:47 (join) myx
06:48 (quit) kvda: Quit:  -___-
06:54 Sgeo: noelw, hm?
06:55 noelw: You don't have to serialise continuations to the client, so there is no security beyond session hijacking if you don't do that
06:55 noelw: If you do serialise continuations it is very difficult to reverse engineer them
06:57 (join) kofno
06:59 (join) mizu_no_oto
06:59 (join) MayDaniel
07:02 Sgeo: Hmm, I gather that the debugger is not exactly geared towards dealing with datalog?
07:02 Sgeo: If I want a debugger good for that I presume a real Prolog system would be better?
07:03 noelw: I don't have any experience there. Sorry
07:22 (quit) vu3rdd: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
07:25 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
07:27 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 265 seconds
07:33 (join) serhart
07:34 (quit) serhart: Read error: Connection reset by peer
07:34 (join) serhart
07:36 (quit) serhart: Read error: Connection reset by peer
07:36 (join) serhart
07:37 (quit) serhart: Read error: Connection reset by peer
07:37 (join) serhart
07:39 (quit) serhart: Read error: Connection reset by peer
07:39 (join) serhart
07:42 (quit) serhart: Read error: Connection reset by peer
07:42 (join) serhart
07:44 (join) bitonic`
07:44 (quit) bitonic: Read error: Connection reset by peer
07:44 (quit) bitonic`: Remote host closed the connection
07:47 (join) bitonic
07:53 (join) soegaard
07:58 (quit) serhart: Read error: Connection timed out
07:59 (join) serhart
08:15 Sgeo: Does DrRacket have any keybindings for Paredit-like stuff?
08:25 (join) willem
08:26 willem: Are there any Redex pros in this channel? :)
08:27 willem: I have a function that returns a (values A B) and I wonder how I can get A and B using a where in a reduction relation
08:30 (quit) serhart: Quit: Leaving.
08:33 (join) RacketCommitBot
08:33 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/wtgJbQ
08:33 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 43e01d7 Matthew Flatt: rename test file...
08:33 (part) RacketCommitBot
08:36 noelw: willem: I don't understand the question
08:38 willem: noelw: I have a rule in a reduction relation that uses (where (A, B) ,(function-call)
08:38 willem: but that doesn't work
08:38 willem: so my question is, how do you access values from a returned tuple in a where clause
08:39 noelw: Ah
08:39 noelw: Sorry, I misread Redex and Regex
08:39 noelw: s/and/as
08:39 willem: np ;)
08:57 (quit) kofno: Remote host closed the connection
09:03 (join) kofno
09:05 (join) Sgeo
09:10 (join) serhart
09:23 (join) dca
09:24 dca: any ideas where can i find fresh rackets builds for debian testing?
09:25 noelw: dca: http://pre.racket-lang.org/
09:26 (join) nielsb
09:28 dca: noelw: i see builds for debian squeeze, whereas current testing is wheezy
09:28 (quit) bniels: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
09:28 (quit) Nisstyre-laptop: Read error: Connection reset by peer
09:28 noelw: Oh, sorry.
09:28 noelw: Guess they don't do 'em
09:30 (quit) kofno: Remote host closed the connection
09:44 bremner: dca: I take you want something after 5.3.1?
09:46 willem: In Redex you can use ellipses to match any number of duplications. But how do you specify only 0 or 1 instance?
10:01 (join) mizu_no_oto
10:08 dca: bremner: yeah
10:10 (join) jeapostrophe
10:10 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host
10:10 (join) jeapostrophe
10:15 (quit) nielsb: Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8
10:23 (join) jao
10:24 (quit) jao: Changing host
10:24 (join) jao
10:24 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
10:33 (join) kofno_
10:39 (nick) stamourv` -> stamourv
10:39 (join) stamourv
10:40 (join) anRch
10:48 (join) jeapostrophe
10:52 (quit) anRch: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
10:55 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
10:56 (nick) noelw -> noelw_away
10:58 (join) anRch
11:05 (quit) kofno_: Remote host closed the connection
11:19 (quit) anRch: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
11:19 (join) anRch
11:20 (join) RacketCommitBot
11:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Wln36g
11:20 RacketCommitBot: racket/master ad579d0 Robby Findler: put the racket version number in the title bar for the splash screen
11:20 (part) RacketCommitBot
11:23 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard
11:34 (join) soegaard
11:57 (join) mye
11:58 (join) jaimef
11:59 (quit) anRch: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
12:00 (join) francisl
12:01 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]
12:02 (join) RacketCommitBot
12:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/7bRBmA
12:02 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 715b0a7 Jens Axel Søgaard: Documentation for polymorphic matrix functions
12:02 (part) RacketCommitBot
12:05 (join) mceier
12:07 (join) anRch
12:08 (join) noelw_away
12:09 (quit) noelw_away: Client Quit
12:15 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
12:16 (quit) spiderweb: Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)
12:18 (join) RacketCommitBot
12:18 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/AH44Zg
12:18 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 1838953 Vincent St-Amour: Move define-inline to racket/performance-hint....
12:18 (part) RacketCommitBot
12:47 (join) Nisstyre-laptop
13:01 (quit) francisl: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
13:10 willem: For the regex users/pros: If you call a function in a (where ...) clause in a reduction relation that returns multiple values, how do you cope with that? (where (a b) ,(function-call args)) doesn't seem to work
13:19 (join) francisl
13:28 (quit) karswell: Remote host closed the connection
13:28 (join) RacketCommitBot
13:28 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/TjHwsQ
13:28 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 69406bf Jens Axel Søgaard: Documentation on basic matrix operations and matrix-qr.
13:28 (part) RacketCommitBot
13:32 didi: willem: If you can't get an answer here, the mailing list is good place to ask questions too.
13:33 willem: didi: OK. I hoped that some .us based people would already be awake and lurking on this IRC channel, but I think I'll go for the mailing list ;)
13:34 (quit) Nisstyre-laptop: Quit: Leaving
13:35 (join) Nisstyre-laptop
13:35 (quit) Nisstyre-laptop: Read error: Connection reset by peer
13:36 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
13:38 (join) Nisstyre-laptop
13:38 (join) karswell
13:41 (join) Fare
13:51 (join) jonrafkind
14:20 (quit) jaimef: Remote host closed the connection
14:21 (join) jaimef
14:23 (quit) jaimef: Remote host closed the connection
14:38 (join) jrslepak
14:43 Sgeo: It flat out didn't occur to me that Racket's handling of keywords means I can use them before required arguments
14:43 Sgeo: I feel like a derp
14:44 Sgeo: I was thinking it just meant they wouldn't be collected into a rest argument
14:44 Sgeo: It also occurs to me that Racket languages really are more geared towards making new languages than implementing existing ones
14:46 (join) DanC_
14:50 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
15:01 (join) Kaylin
15:09 (quit) dca: Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in
15:16 (join) jeapostrophe
15:16 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host
15:16 (join) jeapostrophe
15:17 (join) jonrafkind
15:17 (join) sunwukong
15:21 Sgeo: Although at least Racket has a non-OO way of grouping pieces of data together and giving such a grouping a name
15:22 didi: Sgeo: You mean, a list?
15:22 Sgeo: didi, I intended to say that in Scheme
15:22 Sgeo: But I was referring to structs
15:22 didi: oic
15:24 (join) Kaylin1
15:26 (quit) Kaylin: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
15:26 (quit) sunwukong: Remote host closed the connection
15:26 Sgeo: Ugh, a threading macro like Clojure's -> would be more general than send+ which only works with methods on objects
15:28 didi: Nice, /me didn't know about `send+'.
15:30 Sgeo: Are method names identifiers that can be renamed in a require?
15:30 Sgeo: Because that would almost redeem Racket's OO in my eyes
15:35 (join) mizu_no_oto
15:36 (join) RacketCommitBot
15:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/4Tl8Og
15:36 RacketCommitBot: racket/master cfa9bd9 Neil Toronto: Exported `matrix-basis-cos-angle' with a contractable type
15:36 (part) RacketCommitBot
15:41 (join) anRch
15:45 Sgeo: I keep hearing about Racket being heavyweight
15:45 Sgeo: Is it lighter than Eclipse and Visual Studio, or is that a placebo effect?
15:46 Sgeo: Because I've seen claims that it sometimes uses more memory
15:46 didi: Sgeo: Racket or DrRacket?
15:46 Sgeo: DrRacket
15:47 didi: I see. I don't know, as I don't use it.
15:48 bremner: Sgeo: I'm nearly certain DrRacket uses less resources than Eclipse. I'm 100% certain the UI is simpler.
15:52 Sgeo: No disagreements about simpler. And it "feels" like it uses less resources, but could be placebo
15:52 Sgeo: Due to simpler UI
15:54 Sgeo: There's no way to redefine what function application means in a dynamically-scoped way, right? (change-it (foo bar)) not only changing what (foo bar) does but also what the function calls that foo uses do
15:55 bremner: rudybot: docs parameterize
15:55 rudybot: bremner: so if the lambda is *called* within the parameterize, it will get the parameters - but if it is passed to some code outside the parameterize, it will not get the parameters from that parameterize
15:55 bremner: rudybot: doc parameterize
15:55 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready
15:55 rudybot: bremner: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/parameters.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..rkt)._parameterize))
15:59 Sgeo: Is there a way to define a lambda such that it captures the parameters where defined, and thus outside the parameterize, it still remembers the values?
16:00 bremner: use a let inside the lambda?
16:00 Sgeo: Hmm, you can get the parameterization
16:01 didi: rudybot: (define foo (let ((bar 42)) (lambda (x) (+ x bar))))
16:01 rudybot: didi: your sandbox is ready
16:01 rudybot: didi: Done.
16:01 didi: rudybot: (foo 42)
16:01 rudybot: didi: ; Value: 84
16:10 (quit) mye: Quit: mye
16:11 (quit) Kaylin1: Quit: Leaving.
16:25 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
16:27 (join) anRch
16:29 (quit) serhart: Quit: Leaving.
16:30 asumu: willem: use let-values to capture the multiple values and put it in a list
16:30 asumu: willem: for matching 0/1 clauses, I'd just use two metafunction/reduction rule clauses.
16:30 (quit) anRch: Client Quit
16:45 (join) RacketCommitBot
16:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/XpKrJg
16:45 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9465bc0 Jens Axel Søgaard: Documentation for inner product space operations
16:45 (part) RacketCommitBot
16:55 (join) RacketCommitBot
16:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tcDwaQ
16:55 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 81cccb4 Vincent St-Amour: Fix fixnum comparisons to prove more bounds.
16:55 (part) RacketCommitBot
16:56 Sgeo: Trying to write a silly macro, I have to be screwing something up but error messages have stopped being helpful
16:56 Sgeo: Oh, n/m I see what I did
17:03 (join) kofno
17:04 Sgeo: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8040
17:04 Sgeo: I get Module Language: invalid module text
17:04 Sgeo: . . read: expected a `)' to close `('
17:04 Sgeo: By the require
17:04 Sgeo: I think it's related to the attempt to use a string
17:05 Sgeo: Or I could just be missing a parenthesis
17:05 (join) mithos28
17:06 Sgeo: Does (require (submod "...")) do what I want there? I can't seem to see infix from there
17:06 Cryovat: Sgeo: Late answer
17:06 Cryovat: I don't know about heaviness
17:06 Cryovat: And DrRacket takes a while to start up
17:06 Cryovat: But I'd say that compared to .NET and Java, not having to have project files makes it feel a *lot* lighter to me
17:07 didi: DrRacket != (.NET | Java)
17:08 mithos28: Sgeo: Just use (module* reqtest #f <bodies …>)
17:08 Sgeo: mithos28, but what I really want to test is changing the name that reqtest sees
17:09 Sgeo: I want to attempt to use rename-in on --> and <--, that's why I'm writing this in the first place
17:09 mithos28: well you need to provide it
17:09 Sgeo: Oh, good point
17:09 mithos28: and you will want bindings on --> and <--
17:10 Cryovat: didi: I was thinking of the dev experience
17:10 Sgeo: mithos28, hmm?
17:10 Cryovat: Opening DrRacket and entering a few lines of code is a lot less work than doing the same in Visual Studio or Eclipse
17:11 didi: Cryovat: oic. Well, I love the REPL.
17:11 Sgeo: I still want to be able to change running programs easily
17:11 mithos28: the --> and <-- are matched by binding
17:11 Sgeo: And to the best of my understanding that requires either Emacs with Geiser or racket REPL and only opening DrRacket with that, and I'm not sure about that
17:12 mithos28: Sgeo: what do you mean changing a running program?
17:12 Sgeo: Say I write an IRC bot
17:12 Sgeo: I want to write it by having it connect to the server, enter the channel
17:12 Sgeo: And then from there write functions, reload source, etc.
17:12 Cryovat: eval?
17:12 Sgeo: Without having to disconnect from IRC
17:12 mithos28: Sgeo: Look at eval and namespaces
17:13 Sgeo: how do I require reqtest?
17:13 mithos28: raco test -s reqtest "file.rkt"
17:14 Sgeo: :/ so can't do it from DrRacket? Maybe if I call it main
17:14 Sgeo: Calling it main works
17:14 didi: Sgeo: IIUC, DrRacket restarts the running program every time you hit Run.
17:14 mithos28: look at language menu, select language, show details, submodules to run
17:15 didi: I might be wrong, though.
17:15 mithos28: didi: That is correct
17:16 Sgeo: didi, yeah :(
17:16 Sgeo: racket command line REPL should work, with DrRacket for editing files but not running?
17:17 mithos28: Sgeo: Why do you want to maintain the repl state between changes?
17:18 Sgeo: mithos28, because I don't want to, in this example, disconnect from IRC to change the bot's code
17:18 mithos28: Then you want to be doing eval and namespaces manually
17:19 mithos28: and you will have lots of issues, because there is usually an assumption that modules don't get redefined
17:21 Sgeo: :(
17:22 Sgeo was all set to really like Racket
17:22 mithos28: Sgeo: Racket can do what you want, it is just not standard
17:22 didi: Sgeo: I don't know about running IRC connections, but I always do Racket development interactively.
17:22 mithos28: look at enter! aswell
17:23 Sgeo: <mithos28> and you will have lots of issues, because there is usually an assumption that modules don't get redefined
17:24 mithos28: Right, not impossible just hard
17:24 (join) RacketCommitBot
17:24 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/RGWq3Q
17:24 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 5a4098f John Clements: added docs on requiring planet2 modules
17:24 (part) RacketCommitBot
17:24 mithos28: different namespaces can have different module definitions
17:26 Sgeo: Does enter! do that sort of thing, or would just using enter! or Geiser cause me to get bitten by the difficulties of module reloading?
17:27 mithos28: enter! does some crazy things, depending on your program it may be enough for you
17:27 DanC_ starts reading http://www.eecs.northwestern.edu/~robby/lightweight-metatheory/ ... finds motivation to install racket...
17:27 mithos28: it is usually useful in a repl to reload your module definitions
17:33 mithos28: stamourv: ping
17:35 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]
17:37 (quit) myx: Quit: ушёл
17:44 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
18:01 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
18:04 (quit) mceier: Quit: leaving
18:04 DanC_: something is wonky with the menu in drracket. (Ubuntu 12.04)
18:04 DanC_: it's just blank grey
18:04 DanC_: until I click, at which point, I get pop-up text
18:06 (quit) karswell: Remote host closed the connection
18:06 didi: DanC_: It's working fine here.
18:06 didi: DanC_: What's Racket's version?
18:13 DanC_: Installed: 5.1.3+dfsg1-1
18:14 DanC_: I've seen strangeness with windows not drawing in other apps. I wonder if my Ubuntu installation is crumbling
18:15 (join) serhart
18:16 didi: DanC_: I had some issues with the menu + Ubuntu some releases back.
18:16 didi: DanC_: It might be this one.
18:17 didi: DanC_: I recommend you download, compile and installed the last release from the website.
18:17 didi: s/installed/install
18:17 DanC_: bummer
18:17 didi: Indeed.
18:18 (join) karswell
18:18 didi: DanC_: There is a nice PPA with the last release but unfortunately it has some issues with the profiling library.
18:19 DanC_: hmm... such a PPA might be fine for me; it might be some time before I got anywhere near the profiling library
18:19 didi: DanC_: So go get it. :^)
18:19 DanC_: but building from source shouldn't be that big of a deal.
18:19 DanC_: I just don't have time just now.
18:19 didi: I see.
18:21 DanC_: I'm browsing around; I don't see much DrRacket docs
18:21 didi: DanC_: $ raco docs
18:22 didi: DanC_: or <http://docs.racket-lang.org/drracket/index.html>
18:22 DanC_: ah. there it is. I wonder why I ddin't see that on the web site
18:22 DanC_: blindness, evidently
18:32 (join) RacketCommitBot
18:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/N3Ix2w
18:32 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 1b07cb4 Matthias Felleisen: fixed a @file-is mistake, race?
18:32 (part) RacketCommitBot
18:33 (part) serhart
18:45 (quit) karswell: Remote host closed the connection
18:51 (quit) bitonic: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
18:55 (join) karswell
19:08 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer
19:12 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard
19:18 (quit) kofno: Remote host closed the connection
19:19 (join) m_m
19:21 (join) dnolen
19:47 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
19:51 (join) mithos28
19:58 (quit) m_m: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
19:59 (join) spiderweb
20:02 (join) jeapostrophe
20:02 (quit) jeapostrophe: Changing host
20:02 (join) jeapostrophe
20:10 Sgeo: I really want to port my mamb operator to Racket, but there isn't a sufficiently good monad library for Racket I think
20:11 didi didn't even know that Racket had monads
20:12 Sgeo: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/toups/functional.plt/1/1/planet-docs/better-monads-guide/index.html
20:12 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/bgz6rra
20:12 Sgeo: "better" is a lie
20:12 Sgeo: I don't see a way to write a function that can work with any monad
20:13 Sgeo: Hmm, actually, mapm is defined, I should look how
20:13 Sgeo: Oh, it takes the monad as an argument
20:14 mithos28: Sgeo: You need to take in a description of the monad to do it, just like in haskell
20:14 Sgeo: I wish that wasn't necessary though, that if it's inside a with-monad form it could take it straight from there
20:15 mithos28: well it is written by toups, which is a handle I don't recognize
20:15 (join) kofno
20:15 didi: I thought monads were things that Haskell used to cause side effects.
20:15 mithos28: So it might not be well maintained
20:16 Sgeo: didi, that's one use case (and it's more accurate to say "Haskell uses to build up a value describing a side effect representing the whole program"), but not the only use case
20:17 didi: Sgeo: I see. Complex stuff.
20:17 Sgeo: mithos28, in Haskell, the type checker gives the functions the description of the monad, no need to explicitly pass it as an argument
20:17 Sgeo: didi, do you understand continuations?
20:17 didi: Sgeo: Sure.
20:17 Sgeo: How about delimited continuations?
20:17 didi: Sgeo: Not so much.
20:17 mithos28: Sgeo: Yes, you need to explicitly give a class constraint
20:18 Sgeo: Hrm
20:18 Sgeo: I guess "delimited continuationness is an example of a monad, and could be called the mother of all monads" isn't too helpful then
20:19 didi: Hehe.
20:19 Sgeo: And I'm not quite sure how to be better at describing the connection, even if you understood delimited continuations perfectly
20:19 didi: Nah, that's fine.
20:20 Sgeo: mithos28, better-monads provides the state monad but not get or put?
20:20 mithos28: Sgeo: I have never used the library
20:21 Sgeo installs
20:22 Sgeo seriously doesn't want to pass in a monad every time he uses a function that needs the info
20:23 Sgeo: Even clojure.algo.monads which really gets on my nerves is better than this
20:23 mithos28: Sgeo: Then file a feature request or write your own library
20:23 didi: Sgeo: I might want to champion the issue then.
20:23 didi: s/I/You
20:24 mithos28: Its not written by anyone I recognize as a core racket developer though
20:25 Sgeo: I could make mamb a macro that expands into a function call and the ... lexical... crud, I'm not really good with hygienic macros and kind of want to break hygiene here
20:30 Sgeo: mithos28, ok, suppose I have a state-doublet. How do I get state from it?
20:31 Sgeo: It's just a struct, why does state-doublet-state not seem to exist
20:31 mithos28: Sgeo: I didn't write the library, I don't know who did
20:31 Sgeo: Ugh, maybe library author didn't export it?
20:31 Sgeo: mithos28, it was a "Am I a fail at basic Racket?" question
20:31 mithos28: Ah
20:32 Sgeo: As in, maybe I was confused as to how to get stuff out of structs
20:32 Sgeo: But monad-bind monad-return etc. exist
20:34 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
20:34 Sgeo needs to take a deep breath
20:35 Sgeo: And not desire to strangle the author of the library
20:35 Sgeo: As far as I can tell there is NO WAY to usefully use the provided state monad
20:36 Sgeo: Oh, I'm wrong
20:36 didi: Let's not talk bad about a person that offered a library for the whole world to enjoy.
20:39 Sgeo wasn't thinking properly, a bit embarrassed that I needed to read the source and see an example of use
20:45 (join) soegaard
20:53 Sgeo: http://planet.racket-lang.org/trac/ticket/506
20:53 Sgeo: Do maintainers get emailed when someone posts a ticket?
20:55 Sgeo: Uh. Crud I can't modify tickets can I
21:06 Sgeo: I wonder if having bind and return as dynamically-scoped would be a good idea or bad idea
21:06 Sgeo: Also, a syntax monad sounds like a wonderful idea
21:06 Sgeo: didi, so there is some good in better-monads
21:15 (quit) soegaard: Quit: soegaard
21:15 Sgeo: didi, ok, I think I can explain delimited continuations to you
21:16 Sgeo: You know how a regular call/cc continuation represents the entire future of the program?
21:16 Sgeo: Since it represents the entire future, it never actually returns
21:16 (quit) spiderweb: Quit: leaving
21:17 Sgeo: A delimited continuation represents the future of the program up to a certain point. It then returns the value computed by the program at that end
21:19 (join) spiderweb
21:21 didi: Sgeo: I might understand the concept, but I guess I need to use it in anger to experience it.
21:36 (join) mizu_no_oto
21:50 Sgeo: > (with-mamb the-list-monad (+ (mamb the-list-monad (list 1 2 3)) (mamb the-list-monad (list 4 5 6))))
21:50 Sgeo: '(5 6 7 6 7 8 7 8 9)
21:51 Sgeo: If I have a function and a macro to make using that function easier, what should I call it?
22:13 (quit) spiderweb: Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)
22:16 (join) mithos28
22:17 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
22:18 (join) spiderweb
22:24 (join) don9z
22:28 (join) adu_
22:31 (join) mizu_no_oto
22:32 (join) vu3rdd
22:32 (quit) vu3rdd: Changing host
22:32 (join) vu3rdd
22:33 offby1: "Tim"
22:33 (quit) don9z: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
22:34 Sgeo: As in, are there any conventions for that situation>?
22:35 Sgeo: A function that makes sense to use by itself, but in some circumstances it may be easier to use a macro to do essentially the same thing
22:35 mithos28: Sgeo: can you give a paste?
22:36 Sgeo: Is there a preferred pastebin for Racket code?
22:36 Sgeo: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8047
22:36 Sgeo: mamb needs to take a monad. But often (not necessarily always), mamb will be used with the lexically defined current-monad
22:41 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
22:45 mithos28: Sgeo: I'm not sure exactly what that does, but it seems like a reasonable naming scheme
22:46 mithos28: There is not a standard pastebin, I use gist.github.com
22:46 Sgeo: mithos28, the question is how to name a function and then a macro that makes using the function easier
22:46 Sgeo: My paste doesn't have an answer to that
22:47 mithos28: It depends on how the function makes it easier
22:49 (quit) mizu_no_oto: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
22:49 mithos28: for example call-with-exception-handler vs. with-handlers
22:50 Sgeo: Hmm
22:50 Sgeo: mamb-cm for mamb current monad
22:50 Sgeo: The name is rather verbose for its intended uses as it is
22:51 mithos28: Huh? its 7 characters
22:51 mithos28: Racket names, inherit the scheme tradition of long descriptive names
22:58 Sgeo: It's intended to be used a lot in a short amount of space
22:58 Sgeo: It's similar to amb
22:58 mithos28: than name it cm
22:58 Sgeo: :/
22:58 Sgeo: b2c or btc makes sense, for bind to continuation
22:59 Sgeo: Since that's what it does
22:59 mithos28: Some modules expect you to rename the on import if you want unique names
22:59 Sgeo: mamb was because it was analogous to amb generalized on all monads, or at least I thought so
23:00 Sgeo: The better solution would really be fixing better-monads so functions that deal with monads don't need to be explicitly passed the monad itself
23:11 (join) mye
23:14 (join) fbernier
23:14 (part) fbernier: "Leaving"
23:23 (quit) Shviller: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
23:23 (join) Shviller
23:26 Sgeo: I note that it's easier to process forms with pattern matching where you use parentheses around each group, rather than doing a Clojure-like thing where, say, in a let you have symbol and code to make a value alternative
23:26 Sgeo: *alternating
23:26 Sgeo: Are there other advantages of using more parentheses?
23:28 (quit) jrslepak: Quit: What happened to Systems A through E?
23:33 didi <3 parentheses
23:33 (quit) mithos28: Quit: mithos28
23:34 Sgeo: I wish DrRacket had some paredit-ish stuff
23:35 Sgeo: Oh hey there's an automatic parentheses mode
23:35 Sgeo: But I still have to use right-arrow instead of )
23:36 Sgeo: Which seems annoying
23:38 (join) univyrse
23:48 (quit) jao: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
23:59 (quit) dented42: Ping timeout: 264 seconds