00:00 greghendershott: I really appreciate your help. Even though I can't use the pattern way of doing append* in this case, that was great to learn. Thanks again.
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00:12 asumu: I wonder if this is a bug.
00:12 asumu: It actually is related to a bug report from a few days back, I think.
00:13 asumu: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=13246
00:13 asumu: That one in particular.
00:14 asumu: greghendershott: also, you can distill this even further by replacing syntax-parse with syntax-case. And in your define-lam macro, it still errors if you just expand to #'(lam ...) without the define.
00:17 greghendershott: Yes good point; I'd verified same thing with syntax-case. (I left it syntax-parse because I'd made a typo in previous distillation, so left it alone.)
00:18 greghendershott: and I hadn't thought to boil down define-lam like that; good idea
00:20 asumu: greghendershott: I tried to simplify it some more: https://gist.github.com/4123230
00:20 asumu: This shows that syntax->datum, datum->syntax with the same syntax object as context does not seem to "cancel out" so to speak
00:21 greghendershott: asumu: Ah, thanks!
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00:25 greghendershott: asumu: What do you think, is this now _so_ simple that I should just PR it?  Or still post to the list first?
00:27 ewemoa: hurray: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/ec05ecf55853f8b2023718199ec528b7f47e3ab5
00:27 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b7ptlhv
00:33 asumu: greghendershott: I think I would post it to the list, partly to generate better discussion. Also partly because I can't confidently say it's a bug. :p
00:34 greghendershott: asumu: OK. :)  I've been drafting it. Will hit send in a moment.  Thanks again!
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01:19 Shambles_: Am I correct in thinking there's no such data structure when I want something with fast lookup like a hash table, but behaves as a FIFO queue (ejecting the 'oldest' item)?  I don't think hashing itself would work since the values at indexes in the queue would change.
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01:27 asumu: Shambles_: finger trees maybe?
01:29 Shambles_: asumu: I was thinking about how a processor's instruction cache needs to work.  It needs to discard things that haven't been used recently, so a FIFO seems like a natural fit.  But something wanting to decode a instruction from a address needs to look up things in the cache quickly.
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01:30 jrslepak: I would not normally expect an L1 cache to be highly associative
01:30 Shambles_: asumu: The language I'd be implementing this in doesn't have pointers/references, but it does have (non-nestable) arrays/lists.
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05:37 tim-brown: I'm really getting frustrated at DrRacket on Windows 7... occasionally racket gets busy (doing the hard work I demand of it most of the time)... and Windows gives me "DrRacket Has Stopped Working", and the choice of clicking a button to close the program down, or staring at the message until I click the button to close it down
05:38 tim-brown: this seems to be an impatience of Windows --- is there any way to shut the bleeding thing up?
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07:44 Shambles_: tim-brown: Google seems to indicate this is what Vista and later use as the more user friendly (and thus vague and confusing to the computer literate) way of saying "<some program> crashed".  Maybe your DrRacket is running out of memory, or you've encountered some sort of bug.
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07:47 Shambles_: tim-brown: Basically DrRacket is running out of some resource like memory or file handles, or it's managed to read/write memory outside of its address range.
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08:22 tim-brown: Shambles_: I can't help but think that it's a timing thing. I get a report of "Stopped Working", not "crashed"... which has a slightly different semantic.
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08:43 niels1: tim-brown, but "stopped working" is vista/7 lingo for "crashed". here, the CAD/CAM programs "stop working" occasionally, which is they crash. whereas usually when they make their very timeconsuming number crunching they don't "stop working"
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09:21 tim-brown: niels1: in case it is real crashing (memory etc) i'd assume *more* people reporting the same problem
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09:24 niels1: tim-brown, well, i'm not good in such kind of reasoning. could some file in your racket installation be faulty, too?
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09:30 tim-brown: almost guaranteed... upgrading *never* removes all of the previous version. maybe it's time for some housekeeping!
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10:16 asumu: greghendershott: BTW, I just remembered that one way to solve your append* issue is to use ryanc's template library: https://gist.github.com/4123230
10:16 asumu: (it's an experimental feature though)
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10:28 greghendershott: asumu: Thanks for the lead. I think I have to learn it the hard/painful way, in order to appreciate what such a lib would do for me, and how. But thanks for the tip, I'll look at that.
10:29 greghendershott: I don't mean this in a negative way, but lately I'm wondering about this concept that "you can write Racket macros using Racket, not some special DSL". Does that really pan out?
10:30 greghendershott: It seems like the pattern and template model is a kind of DSL, and the moment you step outside that things can get back, quickly. Or maybe I'm exaggerating.
10:30 greghendershott: back -> bad
10:31 greghendershott: Seems like lexical context is the sticky point.
10:32 greghendershott: OTOH maybe 98% of useful macros can be written in the pattern/template DSL, so it's not so big an issue. Maybe it's acceptable for the 2% to be reserved for a chosen few who know how to supplicate the lexical context gods.
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11:15 Aune: Im using racket/gui and I want to display a multi line string (contains '~n'), but (send dc draw-text ...) does not respect the line breaks. Is there a function that does or do I have to split on ~n and iterate over positions myself?
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11:22 greghendershott: asumu: jonrafkind: I got it working using combo of the pattern to avoid append* you showed me last night, plus example from Tobias Hammer on the mail list. https://gist.github.com/4122971
11:23 greghendershott: I just wish it could use more ellipses :p
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11:25 asvil: does anybody use run-automated-tests.rkt?
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11:47 Aune: Is there a way to get the name of a function? As in (define (get-name x) ...) : (get-name +) -> "+"
11:48 asvil: Aune, probably (symbol->string '+)
11:49 muraiki2: I'm having a bit of trouble with text/font in the 2htdp/image library... I am able to render some fonts without a problem, but there's a symbol font that I want to use that only renders the roman equivalent.
11:50 muraiki2: The font is for byzantine chant notation. Pressing 0 should give a certain musical symbol, but I only get a number 0. Is this a problem with the font itself? It has some special characters that, when typed, modify the character before the cursor (such as adding note duration) and I wonder if Racket gets confused by that.
11:50 muraiki2: Sorry, I'm new to Racket and also to programming, so I don't know if I am explaining this very well... I'd appreciate any help that anyone can offer
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11:54 muraiki2: You can see an example of the font in this PDF, if that would help: http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/music/ItIsTrulyRight.pdf
11:55 Aune: asvil, yes, but is there a runtime 'quote'-function. This does not work: (define (proc->string x) (symbol->string (quote x)))
11:55 Aune: asvil, so I still need a way to transform a function to a name
11:55 Aune: * or symbol
11:59 asvil: Aune: object-name?
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12:00 Aune: asvil, Thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for!
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12:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/XoUntg
12:10 RacketCommitBot: racket/master ac7c378 Robby Findler: fix dequeue! to actually not hold onto queue elements...
12:10 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 9863366 Robby Findler: extend data/queue library...
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12:13 stamourv: asvil: Re run-automated-tests.rkt: IIRC that's what the nightly build's tests are using. Why?
12:14 stamourv: muraiki2: Have you tried using `racket/draw' directly, or something like `slideshow/pict'?
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12:15 stamourv: Maybe `2htdp/image' does something special with fonts.
12:16 muraiki2: Hrm, I'll try that, thanks!
12:16 stamourv: muraiki2: Also, can you put your code on a paste site? I can have a look at it.
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12:18 muraiki2: stamourv: Sure, although all I have is a definition that I then tried evaluating in the bottom part of DrRacket: http://pastebin.com/UHnatF3a
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12:19 asvil: stamourv: yes, nightly build's tests. I modified racket, and found that I touched build-in functions in inconsistent with these tests way
12:19 stamourv: muraiki2: Have you tried using 'default instead of 'symbol?
12:19 muraiki2: stamourv: I just tried that, but it still gives me 0
12:20 stamourv: asvil: I see. If you're changing built-ins, it's usually faster to just run tests/racket/quiet.rktl, and only run the full test suite at the end.
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12:20 stamourv: muraiki2: Where did you install the font? And which OS?
12:21 muraiki2: I'm on Windows XP, and I used it's built in method for installing fonts. The font does show up in other text editors and I'm able to use it in them, so I guess that it is installed correctly.
12:21 stamourv: Let me try it on my machine. I'm on linux, though, so it may be different.
12:22 muraiki2: stamourv: I have an Ubuntu VM, but Racket didn't render properly under Unity when I tried it a few days ago. I saw that a bug was submitted in the Ubuntu bug tracker, so I'll try it again someday. :)
12:23 asvil: stamourv: it seems, that *.rktl files is not "standalone"
12:23 asvil: s/is/are
12:24 stamourv: muraiki2: Ok, I got it to work, so it's probably not an issue with `2htdp/image'.
12:24 asvil: I mean collects/tests/racket/*
12:24 stamourv: Do other fonts work for you?
12:24 muraiki2: stamourv: Hrm, something with Windows XP then? I was able to use another font without a problem, although it's not a symbol font.
12:24 stamourv: asvil: Right, these are files you need to `load'. There's a command line flag for that, lemme look it up.
12:25 stamourv: asvil: "racket -f quiet.rktl"
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12:25 stamourv: muraiki2: Maybe. Can you try other symbol font?
12:26 asvil: stamourv: thanks a lot
12:26 muraiki2: stamourv: Oh, interesting, I tried using the built in "Symbol" font with Windows and that didn't work either!
12:27 stamourv: muraiki2: Interesting.
12:27 muraiki2: stamourv: I tried another built-in symbol font, "wingdings," and that also didn't work...
12:27 stamourv: I'm reading the docs, to see if there's anything relevant.
12:27 muraiki2: stamourv: Thank you so much for your help!
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12:29 stamourv: muraiki2: I don't see anything in the docs.
12:30 stamourv: At this point, asking on the Racket mailing list is probably the best thing to do.
12:30 muraiki2: stamourv: Thanks for your help. I was able to get it working in Ubuntu, despite the GUI not rendering properly, hehe
12:30 stamourv: The authors of the Racket GUI libraries read it.
12:31 stamourv: What was the issue with the GUI?
12:31 stamourv: And how did you install Racket? IIRC, there are multiple ways to do it on Ubuntu.
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12:31 muraiki2: stamourv: The tab interface, the check syntax/step/run/stop buttons, and the language selection dialog at the bottom are all missing. It's just a blank bar.
12:31 muraiki2: stamourv: I installed it using apt-get
12:31 stamourv: That's odd.
12:31 muraiki2: stamourv: Maybe I should compile it instead
12:32 stamourv: That's what I do, but there are easier ways, too.
12:32 stamourv: jonrafkind has a PPA for ubuntu, and there are binary packages available on the Racket website.
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12:34 bremner: muraiki2: please file ubuntu bugs if the ubuntu packages don't work.
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12:35 stamourv: bremner: IIRC, he said that a bug had already been filed.
12:36 bremner: oh, ok.
12:36 muraiki2: stamourv: I installed the binary from the Racket site, and it works fine
12:36 muraiki2: Yeah, I saw a bug already in Ubuntu
12:36 stamourv: Great!
12:36 muraiki2: Thanks!
12:39 bremner: I don't see any relevant bugs in Debian; I guess nobody is triaging the ubuntu bugs. Or it really is Ubuntu (Unity?) specific.
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12:40 muraiki2: bremner: IIRC it was Ubuntu specific
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12:40 muraiki2: bremner: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/racket/+bug/1065997
12:41 bremner: thanks
12:42 bremner: hmm. strange. They don't mention unity, but rather xfce.
12:45 muraiki2: Oh, I didn't notice that!
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12:55 asumu: Aune: re: racket/gui, if you want to display multi-line strings you probably want to use a text% widget.
12:55 asumu: If you're drawing at a lower level than that, you'll probably need to do formatting manually.
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13:01 Aune: asumu, thanks
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13:01 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 11 new commits to master: http://git.io/C_BDFA
13:01 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c632a84 Ryan Culpepper: add ssl-seal-context!...
13:01 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 4b4113d Ryan Culpepper: get default CA cert locations (when available)...
13:01 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f446ada Ryan Culpepper: added ssl-set-ciphers!
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13:28 shriphani: hi. I am using #lang r5rs and amb doesn't seem to be available. What is the deal with that ?
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13:43 stamourv: shriphani: `amb' is not part of R5RS.
13:43 stamourv: #lang r5rs follows the standard very strictly.
13:43 stamourv: So there's really not much in there.
13:44 stamourv: I recommend #lang racket, it has a lot of useful things.
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13:57 asumu: Though actually I don't think #lang racket has `amb`, but there are two planet packages that provide it.
14:00 shriphani: asumu, I found a racket package (amb.plt) but there's some weirdness in there. (amb 1 2) causes it to fail with http://pastebin.ca/2253811 . What am I doing wrong ?
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14:06 asumu: shriphani: try wrapping it in an amb-collect.
14:07 asumu: (see the package docs for an example)
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16:06 jonrafkind: thats funny greghendershott
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16:09 greghendershott: jonrafkind: ((thanks …) for-your-help …) (sincerely … …)
16:09 jonrafkind: I can see why you would expect such behavior (about shadowing) but its sort of clear why it doesn't work
16:10 jonrafkind: since attributes are just plain pattern variables
16:10 greghendershott: wait what? the PR I just submitted?
16:10 jonrafkind: ya
16:11 greghendershott: Yeah as I said in the PR it's an expectation thing. Maybe it's more of a doc or tutorial issue.
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16:12 greghendershott: For a beginner `with-syntax' can be tricky since it almost does "too good a job" of mimicking a `let'.
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16:13 greghendershott: I actually made myself do nested syntax-parses for awhile, to help make it sink in.
16:13 jonrafkind: I mean it is like let. its like if you did (struct foo (x)) (let ([foo 2]) foo-x) ;; expect an error
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16:14 jonrafkind: so really you are expecting the identifier to be looked up by first looking up the thing before the `.' then the attribute after
16:14 jonrafkind: as opposed to considering the entire shadow-me.y identifier a single binding by itself
16:15 greghendershott: Right but my PR is that you don't get an error message. Instead you get the thing that you supposedly shadowed. In that way it's not like a let.
16:15 greghendershott: Right, it's a single thing in itself.
16:15 jonrafkind: what about my struct example above
16:15 jonrafkind: isnt it the same as what you claim but using a let?
16:16 greghendershott: I think the dot notation helped set the wrong expectation for me, is all.
16:16 jonrafkind: ya
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16:31 torog: hey, i'd like to extend the racket syntax for a very simple backus naur form. (<S> ::= a <T> a) should be converted into (define *rules* '( S . ("a" "T" "a"  ))) --> can anybody here explain me how to do that?
16:32 torog: i'm a racket newbie (:
16:33 torog: shoud have been ( S . ("a" T "a"  ) --> S as a symbol
16:33 torog: *T as a symbol, i mean :P
16:34 stamourv: torog: Are you familiar with macros?
16:36 stamourv: Macros are probably what you want here.
16:36 stamourv: Let me find you links to some tutorials.
16:36 torog: yeah, sounds good
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16:37 stamourv: 2-hour tutorial by Matthew Flatt at the last Racketcon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1rOWZkALto
16:38 stamourv: A brainf*ck implementation: http://blog.hashcollision.org/?p=114
16:38 stamourv: A text adventure game: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2068896
16:38 stamourv: A recent addition, which I haven't read yet, but have heard good things about: http://www.greghendershott.com/fear-of-macros/
16:38 stamourv: And that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
16:42 mye: torog: see you next year then :-)
16:44 mye: well, ok, not everyone is as slow as I am
16:46 torog: stamourv: nice, thanks
16:48 stamourv: No problem!
16:48 stamourv: If you have any questions, feel free to ask! :)
16:48 torog: uhh, the youtube tutorial looks really nice but ...
16:48 torog: the quality ... :P
16:49 stamourv: I remember there being 2 versions. I don't know if that link was the best one. Lemme check.
16:49 torog: i can't make a single line of code out :/
16:49 stamourv: The code is available online.
16:49 stamourv: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/scratchy/
16:49 stamourv: More links at: http://con.racket-lang.org/
16:50 stamourv: Yeah, sadly, I think that was the good link.
16:50 stamourv: The videos got better as the day went on, but since that was the first talk.
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17:00 asumu: The tutorial was similar to the ACM queue article, so take a look at that.
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17:46 mye: isn't torog's macro impossible to write without hooking into #%app like in https://github.com/dyoo/infix-syntax-example ?
17:46 mye: ::= would have know context, which an identifier macro doesn't see. right?
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18:17 asumu: Could write a macro around it (bnf (... ::= ...) ...) or use Racket's infix notation (a . ::= . b)
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20:52 lewis1711: I wish there was a version of the racket guide for slow people
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21:31 neilv: so... two's-complement little-endian...
21:31 neilv: i can just reorder the little-endian bytes to big-endian and do the two's-complement interpretation there, right?
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21:32 neilv: i just forgot a byte has 8 bits, so i can't trust anything
21:33 neilv: er, like whether i am on the correct channel
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22:04 muraiki: Hi all! Would somebody be able to help me with a syntax rule? I know that I'm doing something stupid, but sleepiness is preventing me from seeing it... I pasted it at http://pastebin.com/Y0xFCVmQ
22:07 mithos28: I think you have the second dots in the wrong place
22:07 mithos28: you want multiple [word (notes …)]
22:08 mithos28: not multiple (notes …)
22:08 mithos28: if your example is correct
22:12 muraiki: hrm
22:14 muraiki: I have a list of items that also contains a list within them, which is why I used ... twice
22:15 mithos28: I think you want   (chant [word (notes ...)] ...) not   (chant [word (notes …) …])
22:15 mithos28: note … and ] are swapped
22:15 muraiki: oh, I see now!
22:16 muraiki: That did it! Thanks so much!
22:16 mithos28: no problem
22:17 muraiki: This channel is so helpful... I'm not just a beginner to Racket but a beginner to programming, and I've gotten a lot of help today. I'm really pleased with Racket. :)
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22:27 digitalcold: Hello. I've been searching online for a function to execute linux commands from within racket
22:27 digitalcold: No luck so far
22:27 ozzloy: the racket videos are neat
22:27 ozzloy: are there slides and/or code for them anywhere?
22:28 ozzloy: the video is not clear enough for me to follow along
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22:31 ozzloy: muraiki, hey!  welcome to programming!
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22:33 muraiki: thanks ozzloy :D I know a bit of python from some udacity courses that I've taken, but I started on HTDP earlier this year... I'm just now coming back to it
22:33 ozzloy: neat
22:33 ozzloy: udacity!  i took the ai class
22:34 muraiki: I did the web programming one; haven't tried ai yet
22:34 ozzloy: trying to build a robot that drives itself around my house and delivers mtn dew
22:34 muraiki: haha, awesome
22:36 ozzloy: muraiki, super awesome
22:37 ozzloy: how cool is it that the head of the team that won the x-prize taught me and many others how to do something similar?
22:37 ozzloy: SO COOL
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22:42 muraiki: yeah, the teachers are really good. I like the format there better than what I"ve found on Coursera
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22:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/2jCVwg
22:44 RacketCommitBot: racket/master c359e37 Robby Findler: add a toolbar option for being on the top,...
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22:51 lewis1711: I don't get prefab structs. what are they for?
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23:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/6IhciQ
23:19 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 0936d8c Neil Toronto: Reworked distribution API, finally happy with it (as happy as I can be without being able to partially instantiate polymorphic parent struct types)...
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23:20 tewk: /window 2
23:20 mithos28: tewk: window 2 operational
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23:47 lewis1711: if I have some... uh... label. like  say the procedure string-append. is there anyway to get "string-append" from that? some magical macro way
23:48 mithos28: maybe, can you put your wanted program somewher?
23:48 mithos28: rudybot: racket-init
23:48 rudybot: mithos28: (require racket/init)
23:49 mithos28: rudybot: ((lambda (f) (object
23:49 rudybot: mithos28: morphir, a list is a Scheme object.  QUOTE is a symbol naming a special operator in the usual environment; the rule to evaluate a list whose external representation is (QUOTE <datum>) is simply to yield the object <datum>.
23:49 mithos28: rudybot: ((lambda (f) (object-name f)) string-append)
23:49 rudybot: mithos28: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
23:49 rudybot: mithos28: ; Value: string-append
23:49 rudybot: mithos28: ; stdout: "- : Any\n"
23:49 lewis1711: object-name. that'll do :D
23:50 lewis1711: thanks
23:57 asumu: ozzloy: you mean the Racketcon talks? The slides should all be up at con.racket-lang.org
23:58 asumu: muraiki: BTW there's a coursera course using HtDP that's starting next semester, since you seem to be into that kind of thing.