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00:39 Fractal_: Hello?
00:39 jonrafkind: su
00:39 jonrafkind: p
00:39 Fractal_: not much
00:40 jonrafkind: word
00:40 Fractal_: Anyone have some interesting ideas for intro projects to help someone learn macros?
00:41 jonrafkind: you could try to implement the macro-by-example algorithm to learn how transcription works
00:41 jonrafkind: that helped me al ot
00:42 Fractal_: What's that?
00:42 jonrafkind: it tells you how templates are expanded
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00:42 jonrafkind: (define-syntax-rule (my-add x ...) (+ x ...))
00:43 jonrafkind: the ... stuff is handled by the MBE algorithm
00:43 Fractal_: ah
00:44 Fractal_: I've been messing around with macros a little based on stuff I've found on the web, and I managed to get a macro that memoizes functions to work
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06:19 neilv: before i wrote an ogg parser, i am reading the specifications and manually working through an example, as i make a unit test case
06:19 neilv: an extra byte seems to have sneaked in somehow
06:28 neilv: aha! it's an artifact of copy&pasting bytes with control characters from emacs to drracket
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07:23 niels1: hi. in DrRacket, how can I easily disable optimization of defined functions to constants? specifically, I'm reading SICP and in chapter 1.1 there's exercise 1.7 which asks me to develop a better version of a previously defined function "good-enough?", which I'd like to do in the interactive pane by redefining the function, but it fails with "define-values: cannot re-define a constant: good-enough?"
07:32 noelw: Try (compile-enforce-module-constants #f)
07:32 noelw: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/eval.html?q=constant&q=module#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._compile-enforce-module-constants))
07:32 noelw: \
07:41 niels1: noelw, thanks, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to help. i tried to put it into the file pane as well as in the interactive pane, but it still fails with the same error. using it without the argument returns #f. maybe I have to put that somewhere else so it affects compilation?
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09:03 greghendershott: If I originally define a function in the interactions pane, I can redefine it there.
09:03 greghendershott: If I originally define a function in the definitions pane, I can redefine it there and choose Run.
09:03 greghendershott: Would either of those work for you?
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09:35 Fare: does slideshow have a mode with text on my internal screen, slides only on external screen?
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09:37 asumu: Fare: I don't think it does. I've often thought it'd be nice if it could show a timer on the internal screen.
09:37 asumu: (which I hear Keynote does)
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09:42 asumu: A new Racketeer blog? http://www.reddit.com/r/Racket/comments/12m9mf/add_3_million_random_numbers_in_racket/
09:42 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/a7bb4yy
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10:05 niels2: greghendershott, no, but i found out how to do it. i originally used #lang foobar in the definitions pane. when getting rid of that and using the language chooser dialog instead, it works. i don't find it very intuitive, since i don't understand the difference, but oh well, it works now
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10:28 greghendershott: asumu: Fun.
10:29 greghendershott: That reminds me, can anyone suggest whether I should buy The Racketeer, or wait for Realm of Racket instead? :)  http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0385535147?tag=adapas02-20
10:32 noelw: Buy them both?
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10:34 neilv: reading RoR on the train in the morning would be a better conversation starter
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10:36 Haffe: Rise of the Ragers?
10:39 neilv: i heard we're licensing that elton john "racketman" song
10:40 noelw: I had a great design for a Racket tshirt
10:40 stamourv: Fare: Check out Slideshow's `comment'.
10:40 noelw: But did not have the graphic design skills to pull it off
10:40 greghendershott: neilv: Shatner's cover is wonderfully gagtastic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvQwXOCKNLY
10:42 stamourv: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/23
10:45 neilv: ok, we can't use this song now
10:47 greghendershott: neilv: Yeah, it pretty much can't be un-seen. Sorry.
10:50 noelw: http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/What_Has_Been_Seen_Cant_Be_Unseen_Wallpaper_464rz.jpg
10:50 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/47tvepe
10:51 noelw: Posting lolcat to #racket = high point of my life
10:51 noelw: In other news, I'm really looking forward to Neil T's maths library
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11:10 Cryovat: greghendershott: I must say, I prefer this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04
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12:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/VO7CKA
12:56 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 885382e Matthew Flatt: benchmark tweaks and addition
12:56 RacketCommitBot: racket/master f21280e Matthew Flatt: fix problems with non-parallel places...
12:56 RacketCommitBot: racket/master bd0e6ae Matthew Flatt: fix problems with chaperones, printing, and cycles
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13:58 aes: (noob) anyone on friendly terms with "raco exe"?
13:59 jonrafkind: i got it to work once or twice
13:59 aes: It's pretty disturbing when examples from the official blog don't compile...
13:59 jonrafkind: like what
13:59 jonrafkind: 3n1?
13:59 aes: I mean, obviously I'm missing something.. yeah, that
14:00 dyoo: hmm?
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14:01 aes: "hash-ref: no value found for key" doesn't really help me
14:02 dyoo: ase: darn, I have to go for a moment.  Will be back soon.  (meeting)  What broke?
14:02 jonrafkind: the code works for me
14:02 aes: It simply won't compile..
14:02 jonrafkind: did you copy/paste the code from the blog or download the files?
14:02 aes: download
14:02 jonrafkind: me too..
14:03 jonrafkind: what version of racket?
14:03 aes: to make sure it's perfect and clean... 1s
14:03 aes: 5.3-bin-x86_64-linux-debian-squeeze
14:04 jonrafkind: i suppose it could be broken in an early version, im using 5.3.1.4
14:04 aes: (version) says "5.3".. is there some other way to ask?
14:04 jonrafkind: no thats fine
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14:13 asumu: aes: do you need raco exe? You can just "racket three-n-plus-one.rkt" and it'll work.
14:13 asumu: FYI, I think 5.3 has a submodule bug with raco exe.
14:14 asumu: The next release might fix it, but I don't recall exactly.
14:14 didi: aes: Use the (module+ main ...) expression if you go with `racket foo.rkt'. It's lovely.
14:14 aes: Sure, but it's one of the ways I evaluate lisp-flavours. I'm looking for one that does sane things, wrt compilation
14:15 asumu: If you run "racket ..." it will compile the file.
14:15 aes: yes, it will jit-compile fine. I'm looking to evaluate what I can get precompiled/prepackaged
14:16 aes: But I understand why you want to move the goalposts
14:16 asumu: No, what I mean is that it will compile to bytecode and execute that. It's the same thing you'd get in an executable, AFAIK.
14:16 aes: sure, that's ok
14:18 didi: Actually, (module+ main ...) and (module+ test ...) are my new Racket addictions.
14:18 asumu: didi: agreed, I use (module+ test ...) a ton.
14:18 didi: asumu: It's very cool.
14:19 didi: asumu: I'm thinking of doing something with geiser to better integrate it. I have to talk to jao.
14:20 aes: I made a minimal hello-world web app using sbcl, and it weighed in just shy of 60MB
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14:37 dyoo: back; aes: is the issue resolved?
14:37 aes: eh? no.
14:38 dyoo: ok, let me make sure I understand the issue: is it that the submodule stuff isn't being compiled properly with raco exe?
14:38 aes: I can't understand the error message, but sure, sounds like a theory
14:38 dyoo: give me a sec; let me confirm...
14:38 asumu: dyoo: yes, I tried it in 5.3 and in git HEAD.
14:39 aes: http://pastebin.com/nv1bdb1U
14:40 dyoo: aes: yuck; that's awful.  I'm sorry about that; I did not try this under 'raco exe'.
14:41 aes: ok, so what's the problem?
14:41 dyoo: it looks like a bug with 'raco exe' and submodules.  I'm scanning the bug list on bugs.racket-lang.org now to see if this has been reported.
14:42 dyoo: I usually just run it like 'racket foo.rkt', or if I need to get the compilation done ahead of time, 'raco make foo.rkt' followed by 'racket foo.rkt'
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14:43 aes: Yeah, I saw. It bakes some kind of bytecode directory
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14:44 dyoo: yeah, the 'compiled' subdirectory; it precompiles there, so that when you run it, racket uses the compiled bytecode in 'compiled' rather than the raw source.
14:45 dyoo: asumu: am I just being stupid?  I can't find this issue in the bug tracker at all.  I'm using the term 'raco exe submodule' in bugs.racket-lang.org, and I'm not finding it
14:45 aes: funny: if i comment out the (module+ main ...) I do get an executable
14:47 dyoo: aes: yeah; the submodule stuff got introduced fairly recently, and it is hitting edges in other parts of Racket, like 'raco exe', that were written before submodule support.
14:48 asumu: dyoo: see commit e1a6d2b07d263ababc89642ab78f6e17fce19be4 or PR 13116.
14:49 asumu: (and to be fair, our bug tracker currently sucks)
14:50 dyoo: asumu: will this be fixed in 5.3.1?  I dont' have my release build handy on my machine right now
14:50 asumu: dyoo: should be. It was merged to 5.3.1.
14:50 asumu: I don't have any release builds so I haven't tested this.
14:50 dyoo: ok, let me rebuild release and confirm that for aes…  give me a few minutes… :)
14:51 aes: np
14:57 dyoo: aes: ok, confirmed that under the upcoming release of Racket 5.3.1, that bug appears to be gone with raco exe.  You can try it yourself by using the pre-release:  http://pre.racket-lang.org/release/installers/
15:11 aes: Nice! thank you
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16:44 thump: anybody around?
16:45 jrslepak: ain't nobody here but us chickens^Wracketeers
16:45 jrslepak: what's on your mind?
16:46 thump: i'm just getting started with racket after being away from programming for many years, never having progressed past my first year in college...
16:46 jrslepak: using HtDP or what?
16:47 thump: sicp and the little schemer
16:47 thump: i'm pretty interested in the web server that's documented in the racket materials, but i'm wondering how deep i'll have to get into it to have a functional platform.
16:47 jrslepak has not used it
16:47 thump: i'm wondering if it's used in production much by diehards...i can't find much about it on teh googles
16:47 thump: gotcha
16:48 didi: thump: I never used it, but reading the documentation, it's readily available.
16:48 thump: i'm a junior admin at work, and while not a classic newb, i find the idea of building a web server from kit ot be a little daunting.
16:49 didi: thump: Oh, the web server is already built.
16:49 thump: yeah, i'm trying to read through it and grok as much as possible...
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16:53 didi: thump: If you're talking about the continuation based web server, yes, it can be really daunting at first (also awesome. Don't forget awesome). I would suggest you start with something else.
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16:55 thump: okay, thanks, that's the impression that i've been getting, but it's hard to know how much you (don't) know, when you don't know...you know?
16:55 didi: thump: Sure.
16:55 samth: thump: you should start with the tutorial here: http://docs.racket-lang.org/more/index.html
16:56 samth: thump: that tutorial explains how to *build* a web server from scratch in racket
16:57 thump: i've started working through it...it's very thorough.  good stuff.  lots to wrap one's head around.
16:58 didi: thump: Indeed. I think I've read it a 1e6 times until I could honestly say I understood it.
17:01 dyoo: thump: the continue tutorial might also be helpful http://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html
17:01 thump: saw those as well, thank you.
17:02 thump: are there better approaches to programmatically understanding servers and network programming?
17:02 didi: thump: Depends on what you mean.
17:02 thump: that is, even though scheme/racket is a much-approved started language, should the network programming part start with c, for instance?
17:03 samth: thump: no -- that tutorial does network programming in racket
17:03 thump: i'm just trying to sketch out a roadmap for myslef...
17:03 samth: it's way better than doing it in C
17:03 thump: yeah, i know i'm going to need to learn c eventually, but i'm not particularly looking forward to pointers.
17:03 didi: thump: Also depends on what you mean. Network is a huge topic, with many different abstractions.
17:04 didi: See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model>, for example.
17:04 dyoo: don't be intimidated; pointers are neat!  (Hopefully I wont' get excommunicated by that comment.)
17:04 thump: certainly.  i'm just looking for a point of entry.
17:04 thump: yeah, i'll be glad when i understand them.  it's the part before then that i'm (slightly) dreading.  :)
17:05 thump: i'm about to take my ccna, so while i don't know much, i have a decent sense of what i don't know (from an administrative perspective).
17:05 Cryovat: samth: Most things are better done in Racket than in C ;)
17:05 thump: programming, that's another story.
17:06 dyoo: with regard to the network stuff: the "more" tutorial should give a good overview of fundamental network stuff; much of the concepts will transfer over to other languages
17:09 dyoo: thump: dunno if you've already seen this or not:  http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
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17:09 didi: dyoo: I've been reading the first edition. Is it discourage?
17:10 dyoo: 2nd edition is a much different beast in my experience; better
17:10 thump: dyoo: haven't looked too closely at htdp, as i've got sicp and i've been enjoying it (the book and the videos).
17:10 didi: thump: SICP is awesome.
17:11 dyoo: spoiled by an abundance of choices.  :)
17:11 thump: didi: yep, and the little schemer has been rewarding as well, although i can feel by head stretching every few pages.
17:11 thump: my head, rather
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17:11 didi: Go thump! :^)
17:12 greghendershott: thump: Re point of entry: You could start at a "middle" level. Protocols like HTTP and SMTP are basically sending and receiving text. That makes it easier to grok. That is what those Racket tutorials are showing. Later you could (optionally) move "down" into learning things like how sockets and TCP work. And/or you could move up to using handy SDKs that wrap services for you, but you'll have a better sense of what they're actuall
17:14 greghendershott: Also I'd just suggest picking something you have some practical interest in doing, e.g. a small web server, or whatever. Because it will be good motivation, something tangible to work toward, reward for your efforts. It sounds like that's already what you have in mind.
17:14 thump: greghendershott: i'm a longtime linux fan, and am finally, formally studying the unix way, so my long-term goal is definitely a fine-grained understanding of networking and network services.
17:15 thump: greghendershott: yep, that's what i'm shooting for.  :)
17:15 Cryovat: One of my responsibilities at work is maintaining a web application framework
17:15 Cryovat: I don't think I've ever had to drop below the HTTP layer
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17:18 greghendershott: What do I know but if I had to guess, the "internet of things" era is going to consist of lots and lots of web services and clients, probably using HTTP. I would guess that's the sweet spot?
17:18 greghendershott: I think Racket is a great way to explore this.
17:18 thump: greghendershott: having a full-stack understanding of http and web services is going to be useful for quite some time, no doubt.
17:19 thump: greghendershott: or so i would guess.  ;)
17:19 Cryovat: I think it's probably a good idea to go over the RFCs to get an overview
17:19 Cryovat: Or the Wikipedia article if you feel lazy
17:20 Cryovat: But I think a high level understanding of the lower level stuff is enough
17:20 thump: cryovat: enough for what?  (sorry, not totally clear on the context)
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17:21 greghendershott: cryovat: I agree
17:21 Cryovat: thump: Regarding what you were talking about
17:21 Cryovat: I don't think there's too much point going below HTTP
17:22 Cryovat: It's nice to know how sockets work, but these days you can expect more or less everything to have a web server
17:22 thump: cryovat: interesting...i would have thought that you would need low-level understanding to produce code that's production-ready.
17:22 thump: cryovat: what if you're writing the web/http/other server?
17:23 thump: (again, long-term goal)
17:24 Cryovat: Most web servers I've worked with (which, honestly, aren't that many) have done their best to hide as much of the protocol as possible from you
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17:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/NLYI0A
17:31 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 321cd1b Ryan Culpepper: macro-stepper: fix for lifted provides...
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17:37 thump: thanks folks!
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18:09 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/5dr2mQ
18:09 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 68dd17b Asumu Takikawa: Make control contracts play nice with has-contract?
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18:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9-ZFXA
18:32 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 25f1422 Matthew Flatt: fix propagation of "multiple result" flag when optimizing `begin0'
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18:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/S4oX3w
18:56 RacketCommitBot: racket/master 7acfc80 Stevie Strickland: Fix bogus method name in interface contract errors....
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20:00 jonrafkind: I wonder how many people search for racket and end up in a place like this http://maker.github.com/ratchet/
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20:14 asumu: jonrafkind: slick webpage
20:14 jonrafkind: thanks i worked hard on it
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22:04 offby1: that iphone-image-that-doesn't-move-when-you-scroll is vaguely unsettling.
22:04 offby1: And yet it's the future.
22:05 didi: rudybot: Do you know what offby1 is talking about?
22:05 rudybot: didi: partly because I think if we focused on talks I'd end up being the one doing the talking at half the meetings
22:06 offby1: didi: I'm responding to something from two hours ago -- <jonrafkind> I wonder how many people search for racket and end up in a place like this http://maker.github.com/ratchet/
22:07 didi: All hail noscript.
22:07 jonrafkind: isnt half the web broken with noscript?
22:07 didi: jonrafkind: More like 95%.
22:07 jonrafkind: and you still use it?
22:08 didi: jonrafkind: Yeah. You have to white list the important sites.
22:10 didi: But sometimes you give up and turn it off.
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