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01:04 asumu: I'm using macros to generate syntax classes for syntax-parse, which seems to require phase 2 requires. Question: is using phase 2 requires here a sign of bad design or does it make sense?
01:04 mithos28: Seems fine. Why would phase 2 requires be a bad sign?
01:07 asumu: ISTR someone telling me that high phase (i.e., 1+) requires means you should re-organize your code. Or at least think hard that you need it.
01:07 mithos28: You could move it to a separate module, and require that module at phase 1
01:08 asumu: Yeah, and I suppose I could use a submodule in this case, which is pretty nice actually.
01:08 mithos28: But unless that actually makes your use case cleaner, I wouldn't
01:09 mithos28: ugh, I hate that racket doesn't have different namespaces for bindings
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01:10 mithos28: static struct info on the same binding as the constructor of structs is annoying
01:11 mithos28: especially once you add type bindings to the constructor, and a type name on the same binding
01:12 asumu: Yeah, it is annoying. Especially since I've wanted to define my own alternate constructor with the same name, but also have the static info.
01:13 mithos28: oh and I need different things attached to the binding depending on if its a typed universe or not
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01:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/_UHFgg
01:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add Guide pointers to Refs on exceptions & control - Asumu Takikawa
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09:59 SamB_MacG5: If anyone can find a browser that fails to render a glyph in http://jsbin.com/okizeb/2/edit please tell me -- though most likely they'll fail in pairs ...
10:00 ianjneu: no problems in FF16
10:02 SamB_MacG5: of course, that mostly depends on available/configured fonts
10:06 SamB_MacG5: hmm, emacs-w3m in the emacsformacosx build of Emacs 24.1 with the default font set to Monaco 12 only shows the NFC of HTML 4.1 and Scribble glyphs...
10:20 SamB_MacG5: and elinks running under `ansi-term' renders only the HTML 4.1, scribble, and Your Browser glyphs, and not by using the real characters
10:22 SamB_MacG5: gah, why do I keep trying to use the Mac menubar in ELinks ;-)
10:22 jschuster: SamB_MacG5: Chrome 22.0.1229.94, Firefox 15.0.1, and Safari 6.0.1 all look good under OS X 10.7.5
10:22 SamB_MacG5: oh, I forgot to mention I'm on 10.5.8 ...
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10:40 SamB_MacG5: hmm, thats with elinks 0.11.7
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11:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/JDDx4g
11:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add get-token-range to color:text<%> (it was already documented - Robby Findler
11:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add examples to redex-match and redex-match? - Robby Findler
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12:18 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/hDEIcQ
12:18 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] make `chaperone-of?' accept `prop:equal+hash' - Matthew Flatt
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12:25 soegaard: rudybot: ((curryr list 2) 1)
12:25 rudybot: soegaard: your sandbox is ready
12:25 rudybot: soegaard: ; Value: (1 2)
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12:42 nathanpc: Hi everyone :)
12:42 nathanpc is back
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12:52 jrslepak: rudybot: (make-directory "testdir")
12:52 rudybot: jrslepak: your sandbox is ready
12:52 rudybot: jrslepak: error: make-directory: `write' access denied for testdir
12:52 samth: mithos28: what is the problem you were having with type bindings for identifiers?
12:53 mithos28: I'm trying to fix struct-out also exporting make- prefixed constructors
12:54 mithos28: this requires removing the hack in struct: that makes the constructor a different binding than the static type info
12:54 mithos28: after fixing a couple of other bugs, I am now at the point where it exports the correct binding and it works in a typed client
12:55 mithos28: but if the client is untyped it goes into an infinite loop during expansion
12:56 mithos28: I need to make the target of the rename-transformer that is that constructor/static-info not the external contracted constructor because that is the rename-transformer
12:56 mithos28: mostly it is just very complicated
12:57 samth: mithos28: perhaps i'm missing something, but why can't we just change this line:
12:57 samth: [cname (datum->syntax #f (format-symbol "make-~a" (syntax-e #'nm.name)))])
12:57 carleastlund: mithos28: What do you mean by "hack that makes the constructor a different binding than the static type info"?
12:57 mithos28: the line that samth pointed out
12:57 samth: to [cname (generate-temporary (format-symbol "make-~a" (syntax-e #'nm.name)))]
12:58 mithos28: because struct-out is unhygenic
12:58 samth: oh, that would still export it
12:58 samth: because it would be in the static struct info
12:58 samth: grr
12:59 mithos28: The other issue I ran into was that it expands out into an untyped identifer with the syntax-property 'constructor-for that points to the original constructor
13:00 mithos28: the problem is that this identifier is the exported identifier which is a not-free-identifier=? rename transformer to the typed identifier
13:00 samth: yeah
13:00 mithos28: so I had to add that check to lookup-type/lexical, and fixed it for kw functions aswell
13:01 samth: i really hate struct-out
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13:02 mithos28: I think I just need to figure out how to protect the constructor as a value binding instead of as syntax and then it should work
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13:03 mithos28: It will probably just be adding that information on to TRs binding datatype for struct static info bindings
13:08 samth: the implementation of struct-out makes no sense
13:09 samth: why does it need to perform this ridiculous check if the identifiers are available?
13:10 carleastlund: samth: I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess it's because they might not be?
13:10 carleastlund: ;p
13:12 samth: also, why would we want to reject this program:
13:12 samth: #lang racket
13:12 samth: (require (prefix-in r: (only-in racket exn:fail?)))
13:12 samth: (provide (struct-out exn:fail))
13:13 carleastlund: Why would you want to accept it?
13:13 carleastlund: It's equivalent to "#lang racket (provide (struct-out i:never:defined:this))", isn't it?
13:13 samth: no, it isn't
13:13 mithos28: My issue with struct-out is it has to guess at the symbolic names for the exports, which means that you need to define the identifiers in the static struct info with the correct symbolic names
13:13 samth: take out the require line
13:14 samth: mithos28: i don't see where it's guessing
13:14 carleastlund: Ah, I see.  Okay, why is it rejected, then?
13:14 samth: because (free-id=? #'r:exn:fail? #'exn:fail?)
13:14 samth: so it can't decide which symbolic name to export under
13:15 mithos28: samth: it uses the symbolic name of the identifier that is the binding
13:15 samth: mithos28: it only uses that to choose the export name
13:16 mithos28: right thats what I meant by 'symbolic name for the export'
13:16 mithos28: its unhygenic
13:17 mithos28: Anyways I have to go to the differently confusing world of python now, I'll be back to tackling racket issues tonight
13:17 samth: mithos28: a better solution might be a #:hidden-extra-constructor-name
13:17 samth: which picks the name but doesn't put it in the static info
13:18 samth: then TR wouldn't really have to do anything
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14:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8ztlyw
14:50 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add examples for `code` macro in slideshow - Asumu Takikawa
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15:02 asumu: Hmm, sometimes online check syntax gets stuck in bad states.
15:03 asumu: But I can't reproduce it reliably.
15:07 gf3: Hey all, is there a way to programmatically get a list of modules and functions per module?
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15:08 jonrafkind: you can use module->exports to see all the provided things
15:10 gf3: jonrafkind: Oh this is an excellent start, thank you
15:10 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
15:10 gf3: The vim racket plugin is woefully incomplete and I'd like to keep it up to date programatically
15:11 jonrafkind: oh cool
15:11 jonrafkind: it would be nice if you could extract bindings from files that don't fully parse
15:12 gf3: jonrafkind: So, perhaps traversing the source would be a better option?
15:12 jonrafkind: well maybe, but it can be difficult to see bindings because you have to do macro expansion
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15:15 didi smells Code Walking
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15:28 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uvMMSg
15:28 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add an argument to `{chaperone,impersonate}-prompt-tag' - Matthew Flatt
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15:37 ianjneu: How can I get this to work? (let () (define-for-syntax (foo x) x) 0)
15:37 ianjneu: Currently let does not create a definition context for phase 1
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16:22 living_fallacy: In Racket, is there a function I can use that will convert anything to a string, whether it's an integer, a string already, and so on?
16:22 jrslepak: you could probably use `format'
16:23 living_fallacy: Tried it out, works perfectly! Thank you so much!
16:26 didi: Strings are very attractive, but when in Lisp I try to use symbols as much as possible.
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16:27 living_fallacy: I am formatting data into a sql query, so I need to pack everything into a string
16:27 didi: living_fallacy: I understand. I'm only thinking out loud.
16:28 living_fallacy: Actually, as a budding Lisper, I'd really like to hear your rationale. Why do you try to use symbols?
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16:28 didi: living_fallacy: It's a very natural way to format code and lists.
16:29 didi: In Lisp, I mean.
16:31 didi: living_fallacy: Sometimes I wish to split symbols and that's unfortunate. You can do converting them to strings and then interning them back, but I tend to change my algorithm so I don't have to.
16:32 jrslepak would probably interpret a desire to do something with just a piece of a symbol as a sign that he shouldn't be using a symbol
16:33 didi: jrslepak: Agreed.
16:35 jrslepak: living_fallacy: so going the other direction, if it's just to represent one of a small set of possibilities (everyone seems to like traffic light colors as an example), a symbol is usually appropriate
16:37 didi: I use alists a lot too, and symbols are my go to key solution.
16:39 didi: Message passing.
16:39 didi: The list go on.
16:39 didi: s/go/goes
16:41 living_fallacy: OK, now on to my real problem. I am trying to make a macro that will accept an arbitrary number of arguments. If it gets a symbol, it evaluates it, then makes it a string. If it gets a non-symbol, it quotes it and makes it a string, then it joins together all the arguments by spaces into a big string
16:42 living_fallacy: I can make a macro that takes a single argument, and if it's a symbol, evals it and then strings it, and if it is a non-symbol, quotes it and strings it
16:42 living_fallacy: that macro is here:
16:42 living_fallacy: http://pastebin.com/Cba3eRTP
16:42 living_fallacy: But I cannot figure out how to make a similar macro that works on an arbitrary number of arguments
16:43 jrslepak: ...
16:43 jrslepak: ^ serious answer
16:43 living_fallacy: Oh yes, I know how to accept the actual arguments in the macro. But how to I go through all of them and check if it's a symbol or not? I can't map a macro afterall
16:44 jrslepak: oh I see
16:44 living_fallacy: Here is how the macro would look if called:
16:44 living_fallacy: (let ((example-arg 1)) (example-macro example-arg 'example-arg foo))
16:44 living_fallacy: would return the following:
16:44 ianjneu: (syntax-parse input-stx [(_ some-ids:id ...) blaah]))
16:45 living_fallacy: "example-arg 1 foo"
16:45 stamourv: living_fallacy: You can build a second macro that would use `...' to map `eval-to-string'.
16:45 stamourv: Or you cna write a recursive macro.
16:49 living_fallacy: If I have, say, arg ..., is there a way to get the first item in the sequence without converting it to a list first?
16:50 stamourv: rudybot: (define-syntax eval-to-string (syntax-rules () ((eval-to-string 'symbol)  (format "~a" symbol)) ((eval-to-string symbol) (symbol->string 'symbol))))
16:50 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
16:50 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
16:51 stamourv: rudybot: (define-syntax-rule (eval-to-string* x ...) (list (eval-to-string x) ...))
16:51 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
16:51 stamourv: rudybot: (eval-to-string* 'a "b" 3)
16:51 rudybot: stamourv: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: a in module: 'program
16:51 stamourv: You get the idea.
16:52 neilv: living_fallacy: what you're trying to do seems non-idiomatic. however, if you really want to do it, you'll have an easier time if you use syntax-case, rather than syntax-rules
16:53 neilv: living_fallacy: for one reason, in syntax-rules, testing whether something is a symbol is pretty much impossible
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17:08 stamourv: rudybot: (require syntax/parse)
17:08 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
17:09 stamourv: rudybot: (define-syntax (eval-to-string stx) (syntax-parse stx [(_ s:identifier) #'(symbol->string s)] [(_ e) #'(format "~a" e)]))
17:09 rudybot: stamourv: error: #<undefined>:1:55: _: wildcard not allowed as an expression in: (_ s:identifier)
17:10 stamourv: rudybot: (require (for-syntax syntax/parse))
17:10 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
17:10 stamourv: rudybot: (define-syntax (eval-to-string stx) (syntax-parse stx [(_ s:identifier) #'(symbol->string s)] [(_ e) #'(format "~a" e)]))
17:10 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
17:10 stamourv: (eval-to-string a)
17:10 stamourv: rudybot: (eval-to-string a)
17:10 rudybot: stamourv: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: a in module: 'program
17:11 stamourv: rudybot: (eval-to-string 'a)
17:11 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: "a"
17:11 stamourv: rudybot: (eval-to-string 3)
17:11 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: "3"
17:13 neilv: stamourv: two reasons i'm reluctant to point newbies at syntax-parse: (1) i'm afraid it makes learning syntax objects harder, but you still need to work with syntax objects despite syntax-parse's features; (2) the syntax-parse documentation is big
17:14 stamourv: neilv: What do you mean by "makes learning syntax objects harder"?
17:14 stamourv: As for the docs, I agree.
17:14 neilv: my pedagogic plan: (1) introduce syntax-case; (2) introduce some low-level syntax object manipulation in conjunction with syntax-case; (3) segue to syntax-parse when we want to show macros with keyword arguments, and then tell people they are now allowed to use syntax-parse for everything if they want to; (4) don't bother talking about syntax-rules or the simpler forms
17:15 stamourv: That specific example, though, is really easy with syntax classes.
17:15 stamourv: ryanc, calvis and cky were writing a macro tutorial at the hackfest.
17:16 friscosam: define-syntax-rule is awful handy though when you have a quick replacement task
17:16 stamourv: I don't know which order they decided to introduce things in.
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17:18 neilv: the last tutorial i saw introduced way too many different languages for talking about syntax transformation
17:18 asumu: I'd almost rather skip (1) and just do (2), though possibly after (3). You can even write macros purely using syntax objects.
17:18 asumu: No need for this syntax-case thing (which I, for example, never use unless I have to due to bootstrapping reasons)
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17:23 neilv: asumu: i guess, if you control the entire tutorial process, starting with syntax-parse could work
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17:31 didi: From a newbie perspective, this whole syntax thing is pretty complex.
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17:32 didi: <= newbie
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17:37 asumu: didi: hopefully we'll have a better macro tutorial soon
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17:41 didi: asumu: \o/ awesome.
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17:50 living_fallacy: Sorry, network problems. Alright, so if I have args ...
17:51 living_fallacy: is there a way to get the first item in that sequence without converting it into a list?
17:53 stamourv: You can look at the logs, rudybot and I showed you.
17:53 stamourv: living_fallacy: http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs/
17:57 living_fallacy: AH. YOU GUYS ROCK. What an excellent community. Thanks guys, macros have been really confusing for me so far, I would have never figured this out without your help
17:58 stamourv: As asumu said, a better macro tutorial is on the way.
17:58 stamourv: ryanc, calvis and cky started one at the hackfest last weekend.
17:59 stamourv: Also, Matthew gave an excellent macro tutorial talk at RacketCon on saturday. The video should be up soon.
18:01 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
18:01 jschuster: stamourv: I'm not sure I'd call Matthew's talk a macro tutorial so much as a "creating a language" tutorial. I think at least some macro knowledge was required from the start
18:01 jschuster: but it was certainly a good talk for what it was
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18:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/X6MIkQ
18:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix define-for-syntax within splicing-syntax-parameterize - Ryan Culpepper
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18:28 neilv: i don't know what match-define is, but it seems to be causing a lot of trouble
18:29 jonrafkind: its funny because if you know what match-let is then match-define is a natural companion
18:29 jonrafkind: but even so I don't know what define/match does
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18:49 asumu: The thing is, define/match is not at all related to the functionality of match-define.
18:49 asumu: So it's a feature that they don't look alike.
18:49 asumu: (note: define/match is basically ML/Haskell-style function definitions, but more powerful)
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18:54 didi: asumu: Uh, really? You can do stuff like `fun member (x, e) = false | member (s, t(_, a, y, b)) = ...'? I mean, like define+if+destructuring.
18:55 stamourv: didi: Yep, that's what the new `define/match' does.
18:55 didi: stamourv: Awesome.
18:55 stamourv: Yeah, I really like it.
18:55 didi: This Racket thingy is really awesome.
18:55 stamourv: :D
18:55 stamourv: didi: By the way, jrslepak's using your code to add Mac OS screenshots to the widget gallery.
18:56 didi: Yay!
18:56 didi helped
18:56 didi: :^)
18:56 stamourv: We should have all 3 platforms soon.
19:00 jrslepak: oh, I didn't realize who didi was!
19:01 didi looks nervous
19:01 jrslepak: heh
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19:13 danl-ndi: anyone know where I can find the rkt code for raco make?
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19:33 dyoo: danl-ndi: check compiler/commands
19:33 dyoo: let me see if I can get a url...
19:34 dyoo: danl-ndi: ah, here's one.   http://git.racket-lang.org/plt/blob/67d901ccc4c69e2b6ba3038d7ee61d4c23a9ee9d:/collects/compiler/commands/make.rkt
19:34 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8urmh85
19:35 dyoo: The raco commands register themselves by having a 'raco-commands in their info.rkt metadata
19:35 dyoo: (http://git.racket-lang.org/plt/blob/67d901ccc4c69e2b6ba3038d7ee61d4c23a9ee9d:/collects/compiler/commands/info.rkt)
19:35 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8p4bzsn
19:51 asumu: Wow, Greg's new API discovery package is really cool: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=gapi.plt&owner=gh
19:51 asumu: 40+ web services in one. :o
19:53 dyoo: sweet!
19:53 jaaso: https://www.googleapis.com/discovery/v1/apis
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22:47 cky: stamourv: Just to avoid taking credit for things I didn't contribute to, I didn't contribute to the macro tutorial at all. :-)
22:50 cky: stamourv: I do want to work on the FFI tutorial once I get my FFI stuff straightened out (I've fixed the major crashing bug, at any rate).
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23:01 asumu: cky: I look forward to an FFI tutorial :) (and congrats on the non-crashing)
23:01 cky: asumu: Thanks! Yes, I look forward to getting one going. :-)
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