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00:10 yoklov: nobody has any idea on how to make https://gist.github.com/3816039 any faster, do they?
00:11 (join) user--
00:11 mithos28: what part is the slow part?
00:12 user--: what does mz:datum->syntax-object: unbound identifier in module mean? I am using a (require (prefix-in mz: mzscheme))
00:12 yoklov: hm, no part in particular :
00:12 yoklov: :/
00:13 mithos28: user--: that the identifier is unbound. That is that there is no such identifier
00:13 mithos28: I think you want mz:datum->syntax
00:13 yoklov: perspectiveproj (inner function in project) has the highest MSec count according to the profiler
00:13 user--: I thought I wanted (datum->syntax-object ctxt v srcloc [prop cert]) → syntax?
00:13 yoklov: but also close to the most calls.
00:14 asumu: user--: datum->syntax-object is the old name.
00:14 user--: oooh!
00:14 asumu: user--: if you're using #lang mzscheme, you should use #lang racket.
00:14 user--: I am not.
00:14 asumu: Oh okay, then yeah just use the new name. :)
00:14 user--: but I am trying to use some old code that maybe was mzscheme
00:14 user--: but weird then that in the repl it works fine?
00:15 asumu: At the REPL, unbound identifiers do not signal errors immediately.
00:15 offby1: At the REPL, nobody knows you're a dog
00:15 asumu: rudybot: (define (foo) (i-am-unbound))
00:15 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
00:15 rudybot: asumu: Done.
00:15 asumu: rudybot: (foo)
00:15 rudybot: asumu: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: i-am-unbound in module: 'program
00:15 asumu: ^ see
00:15 user--: yes
00:15 user--: ok I substituted but get this error
00:16 user--: mz:datum->syntax: unbound identifier in module (in phase 1, transformer environment) in: mz:datum->syntax
00:16 user--: perhaps I don't understand this in phase 1, ... piece
00:17 asumu: Oh, err, I think you just want to use datum->syntax without the mz: bit. The problem is that you've required mzscheme at phase 0.
00:17 asumu: And you're probably trying to use it in a macro body.
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00:17 asumu: (datum->syntax will be automatically required at phase 1 from racket if you use #lang racket)
00:18 user--: hmm
00:18 user--: k
00:18 user--: ?: literal data is not allowed;
00:18 user--: no #%datum syntax transformer is bound in: #<procedure:...r-tools/yacc.rkt:321:14>
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00:20 user--: this is above my head heh. writing parser feels so hard
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00:26 yoklov: actually, it seems like the timer was just slower than advertized, but my code speeds up when i crank up the timer rate.
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00:29 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/f4xNSQ
00:29 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added some pretty-print using term formatters and fixed the - Robby Findler
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00:46 yoklov: well, that was fun. time to ruin my good mood by trying to rewrite it in c++.
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00:54 raphie: is there a built-in "find and replace in a list" higher-order function or should I roll my own?
00:55 raphie: as in, foo: equality-tester proc-to-replace-element-with list -> list
00:56 mithos28: Are you using head or 5.3?
00:56 raphie: 5.3
00:56 raphie: is head a nightly build?
00:57 mithos28: HEAD is always the latest build
00:57 raphie: oh, is there such a function in that build?
00:57 mithos28: there is list-update which takes an index not an equality procedure
00:57 raphie: oh, huh
00:58 raphie: I generally stick to stable versions though
00:58 raphie: and this would be trivial to write, just wondering though
00:58 raphie: didn't find it in the docs
00:58 mithos28: I would write it yourself
00:58 offby1: sounds like just "map"
00:58 offby1: (map (lambda (elt) (if (something elt) (xform elt) elt)) seq)
00:58 mithos28: map would do it to all elements that match the equality procedure
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11:28 SamB_MacG5 thinks that scribble ought to have a way to check paren-matching in prose ...
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11:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/-0o0NQ
11:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix loop detection heuristic based on self-out-of-fuel. - Vincent St-Amour
11:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Remove out of date comment. - Vincent St-Amour
11:34 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix Optimization Coach's handling of paths with spaces. - Vincent St-Amour
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11:34 stamourv: SamB_MacG5: I use paredit for that.
11:36 SamB_MacG5: Does that restrict parentheticals to a single paragraph?
11:36 SamB_MacG5: (Of course, it gets tricky when you have text that talks *about* paren characters...)
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11:37 stamourv: Multiple paragraphs work.
11:38 SamB_MacG5: Restricting parentheticals to a single paragraph was supposed to be a feature
11:40 SamB_MacG5: it's darn confusing to not have the parentheses in a single paragraph match up
11:40 stamourv: Well, paredit's main use case is keeping parens balanced in code. It's not really meant for prose, but it still works.
11:40 jonrafkind: anyone seen an error like this 'use does not match pattern' from a macro?
11:40 SamB_MacG5: anyway, it would only really work if everyone *used* it...
11:40 stamourv: jonrafkind: Do you have an example?
11:41 jonrafkind: well its in honu.. so it might not be super illuminating
11:41 bremner: jonrafkind:  umm. yeah. But I don't remember details.
11:41 jonrafkind: i think its a new racket macro error though
11:41 jonrafkind: when the use of a macro doesnt match.. well let me see if i can make a racket macro
11:41 SamB_MacG5: it sounds pretty self explanatory to me; it would be better if it gave actual details though ...
11:41 jonrafkind: (define-syntax-rule (foo a b) a)
11:41 jonrafkind: -> (foo 1)
11:41 jonrafkind: ; readline-input:2:0: foo: use does not match pattern: (foo a b)
11:41 jonrafkind: yea ok so instead of 'bad syntax' we get this now
11:41 jonrafkind: or maybe its just due to define-syntax-rule..
11:42 bremner: it's not _that_ new; I remember it a year ago
11:42 jonrafkind: actually I think I was the one that wrote that error message lol
11:42 bremner: heh
11:42 SamB_MacG5: and I'm really a newbie...
11:43 jonrafkind: hm i need to use syntax/loc more often
11:43 SamB_MacG5: what does it do if there is more than one pattern?
11:44 jonrafkind: i dont think define-syntax-rule can have more than one pattern
11:44 SamB_MacG5: oh
11:44 stamourv: It can't.
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11:45 SamB_MacG5: I guess I was assuming you could do it more than once ;-)
11:46 SamB_MacG5: so, if I have a change I want to contribute, should I make a pull request or ... ?
11:47 jonrafkind: yea
11:48 SamB_MacG5: https://github.com/plt/racket/pull/148
11:49 SamB_MacG5: I still don't really understand how racketgrammar* works, though :-(
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11:49 Gertm: Is the documentation (docs.racketlang.org) available as a pdf? Or can I build that myself?
11:50 SamB_MacG5: Gertm: don't know if you can make a single PDF
11:50 Gertm: A couple of pdfs works too.
11:50 SamB_MacG5: (Well, I guess you could always concatenate individuals PDFs)
11:50 Gertm: Just something I can carry on my tablet and read even when not connected to a network.
11:51 jonrafkind: you can download as pdf
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11:51 Gertm: jonrafkind: Where can I find this?
11:51 jonrafkind: http://racket-lang.org/learning.html actually i guess its just the guide, quick and more
11:51 jonrafkind: but im sure the rest of the docs can be converted to pdfs as well
11:51 SamB_MacG5: shouldn't be hard to build PDFs ...
11:52 Gertm: Well this is all scribble, right?
11:52 Gertm: I have the source, so I could build these myself I guess.
11:53 asumu: The reference is available in PDF.
11:53 asumu: http://racket-lang.org/tr/
11:53 SamB_MacG5 looks at raco's help
11:53 asumu: Contains Reference, DrRacket ref, and GUI ref.
11:56 dyoo: Gertm: also take a look at: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/
11:56 Gertm: So much reading material! Thanks guys!
11:56 dyoo: the docs should be there in pdf
11:58 SamB_MacG5: how ARE they built, though?
11:58 Gertm: dyoo: awesome, these are going directly to my tablet :)
11:58 SamB_MacG5: I mean, what do you have to do to build them all?
11:59 dyoo: the build process fires up the "Scribble" documentation system for all the collections (libraries) in Racket.
12:00 dyoo: low level detail: ou can see where's it's being done right around here: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/setup/scribble.rkt
12:01 SamB_MacG5: I mean ... is there not a "make" and/or "raco" incantation will build the PDFs?
12:01 SamB_MacG5: +that
12:01 asumu: scribble --pdf
12:01 asumu: Oh, for the docs?
12:01 SamB_MacG5: yeah
12:02 asumu has no idea about that
12:02 dyoo: I think calling 'raco setup' should do it, though it does more than just documentation generation
12:02 SamB_MacG5: in retrospect, I would have expected "raco setup" to have a way to enable it
12:03 SamB_MacG5: but the closest I see is "--doc-pdf <dir>" -- does that enable as well as specifying the output directory?
12:04 SamB_MacG5: (And how come it's not in the docs?)
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12:06 dyoo: sorry, unsure about this
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12:09 dyoo: I believe so; according to https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/setup/setup-unit.rkt, the doc-pdf-dest-step should activate when "--doc-pdf" is called
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12:23 jonrafkind: whats the best/easiest way to pull out all the keywords from an s-expression from a macro
12:24 jonrafkind: like (foo 'hello #:a 2 'ok)
12:24 SamB_MacG5: yes, that does seem to work ...
12:24 mithos28: Syntax parse?  (~seq (~or e:expr k:keyword) …)
12:25 jonrafkind: so keyword matches the #:a but not the 2 right
12:25 jonrafkind: so i should do k:keyword e ?
12:25 mithos28: what do you mean by pull out all the keywords?
12:26 jonrafkind: I want to pass the #:a 2 part to another function
12:26 mithos28: oh. are all the keywords, keyword argument pairs?
12:26 jonrafkind: so I need to extract it and expand to (bar keywords ... (+ 1 2))
12:26 jonrafkind: yea
12:27 mithos28: (~seq (~or e:expr (~seq k:keyword ke:expr)) …)
12:27 jonrafkind: expr isn't a real thing right
12:27 jonrafkind: just e probably
12:27 mithos28: it is, but not necessary
12:27 mithos28: it is the default
12:27 mithos28: unless you change it
12:28 mithos28: actually you need it
12:28 mithos28: it doesn't match keywords
12:28 jonrafkind: aha
12:28 mithos28: http://docs.racket-lang.org/syntax/Library_Syntax_Classes_and_Literal_Sets.html?q=syntax-parse
12:28 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/99no4bl
12:28 jonrafkind: ah i see 'expr' is by itself above the other classes
12:28 jonrafkind: that is very visually strange
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12:29 jonrafkind: i dont see a reason for that.. might as well put expr in the same box as id and boolean
12:29 mithos28: it is seperate from that group just like id and nat
12:29 mithos28: id and boolean aren't in the same box
12:29 jonrafkind: oh oops you're right
12:29 jonrafkind: i meant id as in identifier
12:30 mithos28: ah, but the real id is below it in a different box
12:30 jonrafkind: my eye immediately drifts to the large box and I think 'this is the list of all expression classes'
12:33 SamB_MacG5: grr, I accidentally clicked on "macro stepper" in a big file ...
12:33 mithos28: Just use ctrl-R
12:33 mithos28: I am assuming you meant to click the run button
12:34 SamB_MacG5: didn't mean to click any button :-(
12:34 SamB_MacG5: anyway, the problem was it beach-balled the whole process
12:35 mithos28: can you not kill/break it
12:35 SamB_MacG5: I did, but it's still frustrating
12:35 (nick) emma -> em
12:35 mithos28: if not that should be a bug
12:35 SamB_MacG5: oh, did you mean from within?
12:35 mithos28: yeah
12:35 SamB_MacG5: possibly it would have worked eventually ...
12:37 mithos28: Did you try? It should have been nearly instant unless you were stuck in syscalls
12:37 SamB_MacG5: I clicked the "stop" button and it was still beachballed
12:38 mithos28: ok, if you can replicate that sounds like a bug
12:39 mithos28: actually maybe not, because the stop button would be for the run not the macro stepper
12:39 mithos28: The bug is probably that it beachballed and didn't give you an obvious way to kill it
12:43 SamB_MacG5: hmm ... how come I don't have anything about it in ~/Library/Log/CrashReporter ?
12:45 SamB_MacG5: anyway, there was a button in the Macro Stepper dialog, it just didn't *do* anything that I could see ...
12:45 SamB_MacG5: I'm not even sure what was being waited for ...
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12:46 SamB_MacG5: I suppose next time I should kill it with a signal that gets me a crash report?
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12:52 SamB_MacG5: hmm, it looks like I get a wristwatch when DrRacket *expects* me to be waiting ...
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12:59 Blkt: good evening everyone
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13:00 SamB_MacG5: So it seems that the "spinning wait cursor" is displayed by WindowServer when a process falls behind on it's event queue.  (Which I had been guessing anyway based on when it appers.)
13:02 SamB_MacG5: (Mind you, it seems that it can also be specifically requested by an app: TenFourFox sometimes shows it immediately after I click on something, rather then after the usual ~2s event backlog)
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13:05 SamB_MacG5: this is kind of ironic ... Spin Control has the spinning wait cursor ...
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13:28 asumu: jonrafkind: maybe you found it already, but there is a keyword parsing function
13:28 asumu: parse-keyword-options in syntax/keyword
13:29 asumu: (though for lighter weight macros syntax-parse should suffice)
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13:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FOuURg
13:46 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Updating read-json to produce eof when appropriate. - Carl Eastlund
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14:20 jonrafkind: asumu, oh I just want to find the keywords and pass them on, not actually use the keywords to do anything
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15:37 ozzloy: https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Racket2 i vaguely remember #:else being preferred in some situation
15:37 ozzloy: i think it was cond
15:38 ozzloy: #else instead of [else ...]
15:38 ozzloy: i started to edit the page, then i thought i should check here first
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15:43 SrPx: How does library support works for Racket? I guess it does not have as many libs as clojure or cl, obviously? Can I use libs from other environments/languages (browser/js, jvm, python, etc) on it?
15:44 asumu: SrPx: there are a lot of libraries built-in and also at planet.racket-lang.org.
15:44 asumu: Likely not as many as CL, but I think fairly competitive with Clojure (don't know for sure).
15:45 asumu: Other environments: there's an FFI for C and Objective-C. If you use Whalesong, you get JS compatibility.
15:45 SrPx: Glancing it seems pretty big, but I'm sure I will not be able to get everything I need from there (not even from Clojure, but it does have Java). That's why I'm asking if I can somehow wrap stuff from other environments if I ever need it.
15:45 SrPx: For example, 3d graphics?
15:45 SrPx: Whalesong?
15:45 asumu: Yes, there's an OpenGL binding.
15:45 SrPx: I guess I'd need more than it as I'm a opengl noob (not sure how hard it is though)
15:46 asumu: Whalesong compiles Racket to Javascript. http://hashcollision.org/whalesong/
15:46 SrPx: an:t
15:46 SrPx: an*
15:46 asumu: I don't really work with 3D at all, so I don't know. You might ask jonrafkind and others here who have worked with 3D libraries.
15:46 SrPx: Very intersting !
15:46 jonrafkind: my real name is john carmack how can i help you
15:46 asumu: Or on the mailing list possibly.
15:46 SrPx: o.o hi
15:47 SrPx: What is your experience with programming 3d stuff on Racket?
15:47 jonrafkind: 0
15:47 asumu: jonrafkind: why didn't you write Quake in Racket? ;)
15:47 asumu: Also, I thought you wrote some game engine bindings or something?
15:47 jonrafkind: i wonder what the startup time of racket is on a 386 dx
15:47 SrPx: Well fine, thanks... I'm new to it, what's the recommended place for an initial learning / overview of the language?
15:48 jonrafkind: well yea i wrote some ffi bindings to various graphics libraries (sdl, allegro4, allegro5)
15:48 jonrafkind: i dont do much with 3d usually though..
15:48 carleastlund: SrPx, here's the quick start document for Racket: http://docs.racket-lang.org/getting-started/
15:49 asumu: SrPx: docs.racket-lang.org -- there is a Guide for learning and a Reference for in-depth nitty-gritty docs.
15:49 asumu: (and a few tutorials)
15:49 SrPx: Ok just asserting those were a good start, thanks!
15:50 SrPx: Racket is like the new version of Scheme, right? Or there is still something called Scheme being used?
15:50 bremner: there are various things called Scheme being used
15:50 carleastlund: Scheme still exists.  Racket was, and is, a dialect of Scheme, but Racket is also a lot more than that.
15:51 jonrafkind: no one is quite sure what 'scheme' is anymore
15:51 SrPx: I see...
15:51 carleastlund: Scheme was never just one language, it has always been a loose collection of similar languages.  Racket is (at least) as good a choice of Scheme as any.
15:52 carleastlund: (for most purposes; if you're going purely for raw speed, for instance, Chez Scheme certainly puts us all to shame)
15:52 asumu: It is somewhat harder to get a copy of that, OTOH.
15:53 carleastlund: Yep.  That's only if you're willing to sacrifice the price of Chez, plus all the nice features Racket has, for extra speed.
15:57 SrPx: What is Racket used for? And it's strong points?
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15:58 carleastlund: Racket is used for lots of things.  Commercial programming, research programming, scientific programming, teaching students... I don't know of anything for sure that Racket _isn't_ used for.
15:58 bremner: embedded systems?
15:59 carleastlund: For strong points, there's plenty, but I'd say we're the kings of language customization.  We have "little languages" all over the place for domain specific tasks, and users have lots of flexibility to create their own.
15:59 carleastlund: Okay, I don't know of any concrete cases of embedded Racket, you have me there :)
15:59 bremner: well, to be fair it builds on arm...
16:00 carleastlund: Well, there you go :)
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16:00 ozzloy: oh hey, people are here
16:00 bremner hides
16:01 ozzloy: regarding https://github.com/plt/racket/wiki/Racket2 i recall one feature discussed was using #:else instead of [else ...]
16:01 ozzloy: but i don't remember the details
16:02 carleastlund: SrPx, mostly Racket is designed to be very flexible and very general-purpose.  There's no one thing people go to Racket for, but give it a try for whatever you're doing, you'll probably find something to like.
16:02 carleastlund: ozzloy, That's pretty much it, #:else instead of else.  I'm not sure there are any details beyond that.
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16:03 carleastlund: I mean, I'm sure there are multiple ways to use #:else, but as far as I know they're all under consideration.  No one has proposed a specific syntax or anything.
16:05 SrPx: I see. So it is a pretty generic language like Python and others?
16:06 SrPx: I'm asking that because someone told me it was mainly used for academic purposes
16:06 carleastlund: The creators of Racket are in the academic realm, certainly.  But that's incidental, the language has lots of pragmatic tools.
16:07 carleastlund: So, yes, I would put Racket up against Python as a practical, generic-purpose language.
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16:08 SrPx: Nice !
16:08 SrPx: Is it fast ?
16:08 carleastlund: Also, I see over in #scheme someone pointed you to SICP.  I suggest, if you're getting into Racket and/or other Schemes, try HtDP (www.htdp.com) before SICP, it's a much gentler introduction to the style of programming.  SICP should be a much easier read after that.
16:09 SrPx: I mean, is it's implementation mature enough to compete with the other interpreted languages?
16:09 SrPx: Oh ! I forgot answering them ! Thanks
16:09 carleastlund: Racket is fast and getting faster all the time, we have a bytecode compiler and a JIT native compiler.
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16:10 SrPx: I see.
16:11 carleastlund: I'm not one of the people who works on performance and optimizations, they'd know better what benchmarks we've run and how we compare.
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16:11 carleastlund: But I haven't had performance issues with Racket in a long time, since before we had an actual compiler.
16:13 bremner: you can get some sense of things from http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
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16:14 bremner: basically, on those toy benchmarks racket is faster than python and ruby, but slower than java and haskell
16:14 bremner: I wouldn't put too much stock in those benchmarks, but it is a kind of sanity check
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16:18 SrPx: That's what I needed, thanks.
16:23 SrPx: bremner: about that site, I'm noticing Racket's source codes use basically the core of the language, which as I'm learning seems very minimal
16:24 SrPx: Yet it does have in average the same code length as the other languages. Racket does encourage you to create a DSL, right? So I guess as you customize it the length of the code tends to decrease significantly
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16:41 SrPx: Also, what is λx:(μα.α→α).xx and why it does appear so often on Racket's tutorial? :p
16:42 jonrafkind: looks like the identity function
16:42 Araq: Y combinator? *ducks*
16:42 jonrafkind: actually it looks like omega
16:42 jonrafkind: but i thought omega was untypable
16:43 neilv: who is putting greek letters in a racket tutorial?
16:43 neilv: racket is not for fratboys
16:43 jonrafkind: off with their heads!
16:46 asumu: SrPx: where in the Racket tutorial does that show up?
16:47 asumu: Oh, it shows up in strings.
16:48 asumu: I guess it's the documentation equivalent of a joke.
16:48 SrPx: I know, just curious
16:48 SrPx: wow @ Y combinator.
16:50 Fare: SrPx: μ is for least fixed point
16:50 jonrafkind: i thought mu was the forall type thing
16:51 Fare: omega is  (λx.x x) applied to itself.
16:53 Fare: an applicative Y would be (λx.x x)(λf.λ(x) ((f f) x))
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17:05 asumu: jonrafkind: mu is a recursive type.
17:05 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
17:05 asumu: (at least that's what it looks like it's used as in this case)
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17:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/OdryFA
17:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] scribble/private/manual-form: Implement racketgrammar in terms of racketgrammar* - Samuel Bronson
17:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add info on building Racket to the "Inside" document - Matthew Flatt
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17:13 SrPx: So it is in active development?
17:15 samth: SrPx: what is "it"?
17:15 SrPx: Racket
17:16 neilv: racket is in very active development
17:17 asumu: (as you can see from the commits that just passed by :p)
17:17 samth: that's what the messages from RacketCommitBot are about
17:17 samth: and why there are 106 of us here in this channel
17:17 neilv: you can usually get some idea about how active an open source project is by looking at their recent releases, their git rep, their email list...
17:17 asumu: Also see: http://www.ohloh.net/p/racket
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17:30 SrPx: Uh huh!
17:30 SrPx: I'm liking the lang from what I'm seeing but the tut never reachs the cool stuff
17:31 SrPx: Not getting why the need for pairs
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17:31 neilv: it's a long story
17:32 neilv: just do a couple tutorials and start making things
17:32 SrPx: lol, ok
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17:33 neilv: pairs are an extremely old lisp thing, which can be used extensively in racket, but you can start doing lots of things before you know all about pairs
17:33 neilv: extremely old, as in predating most all other programming languages
17:40 Fare wonders about using Racket to explore linear logic programming. Or rather linear functional programming.
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18:26 SamB_MacG5: hmm, what does it mean when drracket shows something in red text?
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18:28 neilv: it usually means an exception
18:28 neilv: it can also mean writing to current-error-port (simialr to stderr)
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18:35 SamB_MacG5: oh, it looks like it was actually about an unused require or something ...
18:35 SamB_MacG5: probably the context menu should give a way to tell why something is highlighted the way it is?
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18:54 neilv: oh, red in the Definitions pane. yes, require clauses that the online-check-syntax thing doesn't think are necessary are turned red. sometimes they are necessary, however
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18:59 neilv: that feature is a relatively recent addition, and works in a powerful way. the actual user interface is not bad, but has a few rough spots
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19:11 neilv: i'm trying to update this library to turn various exceptions in i/o, processes, and networking, into application-specific exceptions
19:12 neilv: this is one time that a java feature would come in handy
19:14 neilv: for example, would be nice to know whether sync/timeout/enable-break can raise an exception, and if so, which
19:14 neilv: other than a break, i mean
19:17 neilv: i could wrap each i/o-related call  tightly with with-handlers, but then i have lots of that going on in an i/o event loop
19:17 neilv: i can't wrap the whole loop with with-handlers on exn:fail, because that's too general
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19:36 SamB_MacG5 mumbles something about missing rules for rebuilding Makefile from Makefile.in
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19:49 Fare: make makefile?
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19:51 SamB_MacG5: Fare: are you making or suggestion or expressing confusion?
19:52 SamB_MacG5: er.
19:52 SamB_MacG5: the first "or" was supposed to be an "a"
19:53 Fare: both
19:54 Fare: confusion as to why they can't have a master makefile that works even unconfigured to do the configuration automatically if needs be
19:56 SrPx: (define next-number!   (let ([n 0])     (lambda ()       (set! n (add1 n))       n))) - Did I understand this correctly? n is on let's scope. next-number! is defined as a function that updates 'n', and that n will always be the n on let's scope becuase the function is inside the let list
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20:04 neilv: SrPx: pretty much. that sort of thing is a very common example in scheme books for closures, if you want a discussion of it
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20:12 SrPx: (: neilv
20:13 SrPx: Well that tutorial is good but Racket is specially good in creating DSL, no? Where they talk about this?
20:14 SrPx: macros, reader macros and I've read there's something else I do not remember well, something on the lines of 'it already has some languages syntax coded as libs you can require'
20:14 SrPx: or something like that
20:14 SrPx: like I could load haskell's style with a one liner, or something
20:15 SamB_MacG5: Fare: it would be possible, but much more work then making the generated Makefiles update themselves when they were out-of-date wrt their Makefile.in files
20:15 SamB_MacG5: also, since building out-of-tree is recommended anyway, it probably wouldn't help much ...
20:16 SamB_MacG5: (where by "out-of-tree" I mean "in the build/ directory"
20:19 asumu: SrPx: if youw ant to know about DSLs, Matthew had a really good article.
20:19 asumu: Let me find it.
20:20 neilv: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=matthew%20flatt%20dsls&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fqueue.acm.org%2Fdetail.cfm%3Fid%3D2068896&ei=sYRrUJ6mCsjn0gH_6YHoAw&usg=AFQjCNGO60HMcVrJBFxuklsaoynZHJbpaQ
20:20 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8k52emu
20:20 Fare: I suppose I should try build my linear lisp in racket
20:20 asumu: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2068896
20:20 asumu: Oh, I guess neilv already foudn it.
20:20 asumu: *found
20:20 Fare: then bootstrap an actual implementation when the design is stable
20:21 Fare: are there linear logic / linear typing things in racket / planet?
20:21 asumu: Fare: what do you mean by linear lisp? You mean like a linear type system or something else?
20:21 Fare: yes
20:22 Fare: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html
20:23 asumu: Oh, interesting. So linearity is enforced dynamically but at the instruction level?
20:24 asumu: Redex might be a useful way to prototype it.
20:25 asumu: Also, Jesse Tov wrote an affine contracts library: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=affine-contracts.plt&owner=tov
20:25 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/822ssd9
20:26 asumu: He also wrote a cool language with an affine type system: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/alms
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20:31 neilv: is there any known bug in 5.3 relating to proving a struct predicate from a module, and it not being visible in a requiring module?
20:32 neilv: i probably have a bug in my app, because i'm having trouble reproducing it with a minimal example
20:32 asumu: neilv: not that I know of. Do you have an example?
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20:35 neilv: ok, the problem is doing through a planet development link. almost like it's not getting the right version, or a cache is out of date
20:35 Fare: asumu: that would be the official semantics and a naive interpreter. I expect a compiler to do much better
20:36 Fare: also, the language has finer types that a traditional lisp
20:36 neilv: ok, i think i see the problem. cvs server and workstation's clocks are 40 minutes out of sync
20:39 Fare: cvs? yuck
20:40 Fare: asumu: excellent! I'll take a look at it.
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20:42 Fare: asumu: interestingly, I have affine boxes in LIL, too
20:42 Fare: I use them in my stateful->pure automatic translation.
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20:57 Radvendii: i have a super nooby question...
20:57 Radvendii: how do I install racket in /usr/local/bin/?
20:59 asumu: Radvendii: are you using one of the packages from the website?
20:59 Radvendii: yeah
20:59 asumu: You might be better off putting it in /usr/local/racket and adding /usr/local/racket/bin to your path. Or you could put symbolic links in /usr/local/bin to wherever.
21:00 Radvendii: ooh
21:00 Radvendii: okay
21:00 Radvendii: that makes sense
21:00 asumu: (that makes it easy to update)
21:00 Radvendii: mhmm and easy to find
21:00 Radvendii: thanks
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21:01 neilv: i think it might involve re-providing, compiled/drracket/errortrace, and one of the file timestamps having possibly been out of sync for one click of Run button but no longer
21:04 Radvendii: asumu: is there a way to link the symbolically link the whole racket folder (including the man pages et al) not just the bin? or would i have to do thos seperately?
21:04 Radvendii: or not necessarily symbolically link...
21:08 neilv: Radvendii: are you compiling from source, or how are you installing it?
21:09 Radvendii: just hitting the download button on the website
21:09 Radvendii: ah well... the documentation doesn't matter that much
21:10 Radvendii: thanks all
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21:23 neilv: i have a vague idea what the bug is, but if i report it, then matthew will get a headache trying to find it
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21:32 SamB_MacG5: so ... how long ago was racket known as mz scheme?
21:36 asumu: SamB_MacG5: Prior to June 2010 it was PLT Scheme and the core runtime was MzScheme.
21:37 SamB_MacG5: why rename the core?
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21:41 asumu: Well, it'd be confusing if it was called Racket but the binary was named mzscheme still.
21:41 asumu: Also, it's not just Scheme anymore so it's misleading to call it that.
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21:51 user--: can anyone tell me the meaning of the 'union' in the context of this http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/dherman/java.plt/1/5/contract-utils.ss code?
21:51 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8vzz2j5
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21:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/sCMK7w
21:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust tooltip windows so they go away whenever - Robby Findler
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22:58 SamB_MacG5: asumu: I didn't mean that any (more) of the binaries should be called that. In any case, it's surely not as confusing as CMUCL's compiler being called Python ;-P
23:03 Fare: what about running clpython on python cl ?
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23:25 asumu: user--... oh he's gone. Turns out or/c used to be called union.
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23:26 asumu: SamB_MacG5: heh. If you look in the C source code for Racket you will still see lots of scheme_*s.
23:34 SamB_MacG5: asumu: I have
23:41 SamB_MacG5: sooo ... I'm a bit surprised that racket doesn't seem to have any fancy crashing support!
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23:58 SamB_MacG5: what? you don't actuall pull for pull requests ?