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02:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Reference: fix interface example typo - Asumu Takikawa
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03:51 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Synch German string constants with latest. - Mike Sperber
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12:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Squelching port-closed error messages - Jay McCarthy
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13:17 asumu: https://twitter.com/littlecalculist/status/250632597678456833
13:17 asumu: https://twitter.com/littlecalculist/status/250632004851335168
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15:31 spanner: It'd be nice if DrRacket could auto-convert parens to square brackets where appropriate (either file-wide or by right-clicking on a paren)
15:31 spanner: For example, when I grab some code
15:35 spanner: (for let, cond etc.)
15:38 cky: spanner: Then you'd have to define style rules about when to use which, and _every_ developer has different ideas about that.
15:39 cky: There isn't a standard convention for that kind of thing. At least, not in the general Scheme world, where many people still live by "round brackets only".
15:40 spanner: I was just thinking for the standard idiomatic Racket (let, cond etc.). So there'd be standard parens-everywhere, and the alternate paren-bracket rather than paren-paren when they occur in pairs.
15:40 asumu: Generally, I use [] when I see binding pairs or conditional/pattern pairs, but that's not a rule everyone uses.
15:40 stamourv: cky: There's an almost universal style in Racket.
15:41 stamourv: Which is pretty much what asumu described.
15:41 cky: Yes, what asumu described makes sense.
15:42 spanner: I agree, and it's a pain to convert manually (e.g. if you're working with someone else
15:42 spanner: 's code
15:42 cky: What I sometimes hear is that some people use square brackets when it's not an expression, such as in lambda lists, so that you get Clojure-style (lambda [foo bar baz] ...).
15:42 cky: And different people seem to have different opinions on that.
15:43 cky: spanner: You can just implement your own writer to catch the let, cond, etc. forms. :-)
15:43 carleastlund: And in my code, I use: (lambda {foo bar baz} (cond [art bart] [cart dart] [eart ...]))
15:44 cky: Wow.
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15:44 carleastlund: I know.  One kind of delimiter was unsurprising, two was revolutionary, but THREE?!?!  I'm just CA-RAZY!
15:46 cky: ;-)
15:46 spanner shuns carleastlund
15:46 carleastlund runs off to play with a frumious bandersnatch
15:48 acarrico: I don't use the square brackets. I think it would have been better to reserve them for literals, like vectors and maps or something. The current usage seems wasteful.
15:48 acarrico: (curly for maps).
15:48 carleastlund: Why is your use any better than ours?
15:49 cky: acarrico: Certainly that's what Clojure does.
15:49 cky: acarrico: Exception, in Clojure, lambda lists have to be a vector.
15:49 acarrico: Because we already have parens!
15:49 cky: *Except
15:49 carleastlund: We already have parens for vectors and maps, too.
15:49 cky: acarrico: So you have to use (fn [foo bar baz] ...), and (fn (foo bar baz) ...) would get rejected.
15:49 acarrico: I just love shift 3.
15:49 acarrico: :)
15:49 spanner: wow, I guess I've inadvertently opened a huge can of worms ;)
15:50 cky: acarrico: Lol.
15:50 acarrico: Syntax, just the kind of thing to start a holy war.
15:50 asumu: Special meanings for [ and ] makes the lives of macro writers more difficult, potentially.
15:50 asumu: The consistency of (, [, { is a plus for that.
15:50 carleastlund: I am Carl, the Curly-brace Crusader!
15:50 acarrico: Actually, I imagine "they" thought that the brackets were useful for teaching.
15:51 cky: asumu: Well, not that I'm batting for Clojure, but in Clojure, [] is just for vector literals, and all macro systems (whether Scheme or Clojure) have to deal explicitly with macros anyway.
15:51 cky: *have to deal explicitly with vectors anyway
15:51 asumu: So the fact that a `let` uses a vector literal is very odd.
15:51 carleastlund: I like (,{,[ for indicating the syntactic meaning of things that are otherwise indistinguishable lists.  If we used them for actually semantically different things, I'd have to use, what, comments on every cond?
15:52 cky: asumu: Vector literals for those kinds of things in Clojure are standard practice, and (AFAIK) enforced.
15:52 asumu: Yes (pretty sure you're correct on the latter), but that's not really what I was getting at.
15:52 asumu: I just think it's odd that vector literal syntax can be used for things that are not really vectors.
15:53 asumu: Like binding pairs.
15:53 carleastlund: Confusing literals with the data they represent is a real pain.  The fact that hash literals in Racket have to be hashes themselves leads to some very weird stuff.  Hash _literals_ should be sequences of syntax object pairs _representing_ keys and values.  Unfortunately, since syntax objects do not have meaningful hash keys, we can't do that.
15:53 asumu: ^ what he said (which is what I meant but more eloquently expressed, I think)
15:54 acarrico: It would make sense to make it easy to rebind the meaning of the two brackets, like [...] read macro for (square-bracket ...), then you could use them as you like locally.
15:54 acarrico: Maybe there is something like that in Racket for all I know :).
15:55 carleastlund: Yes, because what I want is for basic delimiters to change meaning locally inside a program.  :(
15:55 pauls_: Well, #slideshow is able to detect things like that, I think.
15:55 acarrico: Why not? Just use lexical scope.
15:55 acarrico: X means different things in different places.
15:55 pauls_: (for `(code ...)`)
15:55 acarrico: So maybe {} is a assoc. list here, and a hash table there.
15:56 acarrico: As is convenient.
15:56 acarrico: By rebinding curly-bracket.
15:56 carleastlund: At the token level, X always means a symbol.  It _is bound_ to different things at different points.  But if I can't even parse it as X everywhere, I'm sunk.
15:57 acarrico: Well, parens are special, because of the macros, but already they expand to %#app or whatever.
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15:57 carleastlund: You're confusing the reader and the macro expander.
15:58 acarrico: So you can rebind the ones that make it through expansion as applications.
15:58 carleastlund: Parens always read to null, lists, or improper lists (depending on contents).  The macro expander then processes lists, and some of that processing uses the binding for #%app.
15:58 acarrico: Right, parens are special.
15:58 asumu: ' is bad enough, having {} expand to an application would be very weird. Because the binding structure is not apparent to the user.
15:59 acarrico: I'm just saying that [] and {} could be like ' and `.
15:59 acarrico: and ,,
15:59 carleastlund: I don't think macro expansion is relevant to this discussion at all.  I thought we were talking about the reader.  The paren _characters_ mean nothing to the macro expander, and do not have "bindings".
15:59 carleastlund: ` and , and ' don't have bindings either, and can't be re-bound.
15:59 asumu: I meant "read as" rather than "expand to".
16:00 acarrico: Yes. I'm not suggesting doing anything special with parens, but treating brackets like quote and quasiquote, and comma.
16:00 cky: carleastlund: In the way that `, ,, and ' all get read as (respectively) quasiquote, unquote, and quote (and those particular identifiers can indeed be rebound), I think acarrico's point is that [] should be read in as something that's different to (), and that can be rebound.
16:01 acarrico: And I'm not even suggesting it seriously. I'm just saying I don't use them as parens, because it seems like a waste.
16:01 carleastlund: Parens, brackets, and braces _are_ treated like quote, quasiquote, and comma.  They have special meaning to the reader, and produce a specific kind of value.
16:01 cky: For example, you can make it so that [a b c] gets read as (|[]| a b c), for example.
16:01 acarrico: cky: cool.
16:01 cky: And ditto with {a b c} => (|{}| a b c).
16:01 cky: acarrico: I'm not saying that Racket supports this.
16:01 cky: acarrico: I'm saying that you can write a reader to do it.
16:02 carleastlund: One can make custom readers.  But then, you can make a custom reader that just parses things as Javascript.  So the question is when you've left the territory of "Racket (or Scheme)-like syntax".
16:02 acarrico: cky: Ah. And I'd say that would be a better use of {} and [] than aliasing ().
16:02 cky: Sure, I can concur with that.
16:03 cky: And then by default, Racket can just make (|[]| items ...) => (items ...)
16:03 cky: And others can override that as they please.
16:03 carleastlund: Not really, because that won't work in non-expansion positions.
16:03 cky: Hmmm, fair point.
16:04 carleastlund: The cond macro would have to be specially written to interpret [question answer] the same as (question answer) and {question answer}.
16:04 cky: Yes.
16:04 carleastlund: Now, you could write a #%app macro that checks the () vs [] vs {} property of syntax objects, which _is_ recorded, and does different stuff with them then.
16:05 cky: That's pretty cool.
16:05 carleastlund: In a non-s-expression language, where lists weren't doing extra duty as every single kind of syntactic form, I would certainly use [] and {} for other stuff.
16:06 carleastlund: The fact of the matter is that lists are already "aliased" as ninety thousand different syntactic forms.  So if they have three different lexical aliases, that's almost too few, not too many.
16:06 cky: It could probably even implement Clojure-style [] and {} expressions. By which, I mean, [a b c] is basically the same as `#(,a ,b ,c).
16:07 cky: (IIRC, that is. I'm not a Clojurian.)
16:07 cky: IANAC. :-P
16:07 carleastlund: But, you'd have trouble when a were a macro name, or when [] showed up inside quote.
16:07 cky: Yeah, you'd have to handle '[] and `[] differently, that's for sure. >_<
16:08 carleastlund: I think fundamentally to make this kind of thing work you'd need to go to a macros-with-lexical-syntax system, where actual parsing were going on.  And that's open research.
16:09 pauls_: Rust has something sort of like this.
16:09 cky: That sound like a cool thing to research. Too bad it's not something you can present in a lightning talk at RacketCon. ;-)
16:09 cky still has to decide what to do a lightning talk about.
16:10 bremner`: about lightning, clearly.\
16:10 cky: Basically, I don't currently have any interesting Racket projects to talk about. So I'd actually be implementing something, and writing a lightning talk about it, between now and RacketCon. :-P
16:11 cky: bremner`: :-D
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16:27 asumu: cky: FYI, I did implement Clojure style [], () using exactly the trick carleastlund describes.
16:27 asumu: I even allow , in hash literals using a nasty trick.
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16:29 cky: asumu: Wow.
16:29 cky is impressed.
16:29 cky: But then again, you're the same person who implemented sweet-expressions in Racket. :-)
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16:29 asumu: examples: https://github.com/takikawa/racket-clojure/blob/master/tests/test.rkt
16:29 asumu: (various edge cases may fail, I didn't really put much time into this)
16:30 asumu: Also, the sweet expression thing should mostly be credited to the original authors, whose code I just ported. :)
16:32 cky: :-)
16:32 cky: Very nice (re test.rkt).
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16:32 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix redex pdf generation when a string is passed - Robby Findler
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16:34 Cryovat: I'm not a huge fan of the Clojure literals
16:34 Cryovat: Being able to use ( and [ interchangingly helps readability a lot imo
16:36 chandler: Do you actually use them interchangeably? Or just for binding groups?
16:36 Cryovat: Mostly in let's
16:37 Cryovat: And objects
16:37 chandler: If we're going to get creative with the brackets, (let [a 1] [b 2] ... (body-expression-1) (body-expression-2) ...) would be a huge improvement.
16:38 Cryovat: Hmm
16:38 Cryovat: You lose some structure by doing that
16:38 carleastlund: I'm not sure I agree.  I see where you're coming from, but there are a number of reasons I like the way let currently works.
16:38 Cryovat: Suddenly there's no distinct separation between declarations and body anymore
16:39 asumu: That breaks if you still use [] for application, I think.
16:39 chandler: Right; you'd have to reserve [] for syntax.
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16:39 carleastlund: Especially because I use (let {[a 1] [b 2]} body ...), and the distinction I use with ({[]}) is that I have Emacs indent them all differently.  So there's a reason for which I use where.
16:39 asumu: I just avoid using let.
16:39 Cryovat: You prefer define?
16:40 carleastlund: define > let
16:40 asumu: Yes, usually.
16:40 asumu: I also tried out a #:with binding form (like Haskell's where) for define/match, but stamourv convined me it was a bad idea.
16:40 Cryovat: I see the argument for using define to avoid more indenting
16:41 Cryovat: But it doesn't feel "functional"
16:41 chandler: carleastlund: I'm no expert on Emacs indenting, but I don't see any reason why (let [a 1] [b 2] body ...) couldn't be indented the same way as the version with grouped binding expressions.
16:41 carleastlund: Because I don't want [ ] indented that way in cond.
16:42 carleastlund: I _only_ indent based on delimiters.  That way I don't have to teach every darned new macro to my Emacs.
16:42 chandler: I'm pretty sure that Emacs can vary the indentation based on the expression.
16:42 chandler: Ah.
16:42 carleastlund: My .emacs had started to grow proportionally to the total amount of code I had ever written.  And, uh, no thank you.
16:42 chandler: This really seems like a tool deficiency to me.
16:43 carleastlund: What does?
16:43 chandler: The whole indentation situation.
16:43 carleastlund: How would you like it to work?  I really like the setup I have.
16:43 carleastlund: And I don't mean what mechanism.  I just mean how do you want to conceptually correlate code with indentation.
16:44 carleastlund: (in a way that isn't entirely case-by-case for each new form)
16:46 chandler: For CL, Emacs + SLIME will use the argument list of the macro to inform the editor how the body should be indented. Obviously this falls down for more sophisticated macros; I suppose something like `syntax-parse' might be able to support some annotations that would allow smarter automatic formatting.
16:46 asumu: Cryovat: It's no less functional than let. Both allow mutation of variables, in particular.
16:46 chandler: I'm looking to see if geiser does this kind of smart indenting; I'm not finding a reference to it in the documentaiton.
16:47 Cryovat: asumu: That's true, but at least let desugars into a lambda
16:47 carleastlund: But then Emacs can only indent macros defined in the same file, right?
16:48 Cryovat: Hang on
16:48 Cryovat: Looks like define does that too
16:48 Cryovat: Seems like I stand corrected
16:48 chandler: carleastlund: I don't see why it would have that restriction. Certainly online expansion in DrRacket doesn't, and this seems very similar to me.
16:48 asumu: Actually, define turns into define-values which is a core form, I think.
16:49 carleastlund: But then Emacs has to know how to compile programs in your language.  It basically needs the entire Racket VM inside it.
16:49 chandler: I don't follow that either; Emacs can certainly talk to an external Racket instance.
16:49 Cryovat: The Macro stepper in DrRacket turned the define into let-values
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16:50 carleastlund: I personally don't think Emacs should have to compile the code and ask DrRacket anything to be able to indent stuff.  It should be able to indent stuff sensibly even for incomplete, non-compiling code.
16:50 asumu: Cryovat: Ah, you're right. It expands differently depending on its context.
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16:51 asumu: And it will expand into a letrec if you use it recursively.
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16:52 carleastlund: define always expands into define-values itself, but internal defines local-expand their contents and restructure definitions as let[rec]-values.
16:52 Cryovat: That's interesting
16:52 Cryovat: And a little bit on the magical side
16:54 carleastlund: Welcome to the Racket macro expander ;)
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17:00 asumu: It's weird that % in Racket lets you elide a handler, because this always breaks if you use an fcontrol in it.
17:00 asumu: rudybot: eval (required racket/control) (% (fcontrol 0))
17:00 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
17:00 rudybot: asumu: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: required in module: 'program
17:00 asumu: rudybot: eval (require racket/control) (% (fcontrol 0))
17:00 rudybot: asumu: error: call-with-continuation-prompt: context (application of default prompt handler) expected 1 value, received 2 values: 0 #<continuation>
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18:45 danl-ndi_: does anyone have a pointer to an example parser for a C style language (written in Racket)?
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18:50 danl-ndi_: (lost by netsplit, I think) does anyone have a pointer to an example parser for a C style language (written in Racket)?
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18:56 asumu: danl-ndi_: the first that comes to mind is honu https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/honu/core/read.rkt
18:57 asumu: (which you can ask jonrafkind about when he's in here)
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19:10 dyoo: danl-ndi: if you have an yacc-sytle grammar, you can use the parser-tools collection to generate a parser.  If you're looking for a python-style parser, check with Joe Politz: he's written a "parseltongue" language for Shriram's language class and coded up his own parser
19:13 chandler: dyoo: speaking of such things, how's autogrammar coming along?
19:13 dyoo: I have to admit that I have not made process on it lately
19:13 dyoo: I finally moved into Salt Lake two weeks ago, and have been touring around
19:13 dyoo: I start my postdoc officially next week though
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19:14 dyoo: I'll look at autogrammar then.  I want to play with jon rafkind's packrat parser package and see if it's more appropriate for auto grammar's backend
19:14 chandler: Cool.
19:17 dyoo: danl-ndi: that reminds me, take a look at jon rafkind's pegs package: he has a java parser in there if I'm not mistaken
19:18 dyoo: danl-ndi: here's the URL: https://github.com/kazzmir/Pegs
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20:47 danl-ndi_: asumu: cool that honu parser seems to work a treat
20:47 danl-ndi_: thanks
20:47 (nick) danl-ndi_ -> danl-ndi
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22:21 Fare: eli: ping?
22:22 Fare: ? in Scribble is output correctly for HTML, but brokenly for PDF, as if doubly converted from l1 to u8.
22:22 Fare: is the racket-dev list appropriate to report such bugs?
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22:48 asumu: Fare: you could do that, but a bug report might be preferable.
22:48 asumu: You can send one through DrRacket or at bugs.racket-lang.org
22:49 Fare: thanks
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23:06 Fare: (reported through the web site)
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