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00:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] v5.3 stuff - Eli Barzilay
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00:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 134 new commits to stable: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/dc7cb8c0ba0a...df5a3bc038bb
00:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/stable] Alpha version number for the v5.3 release - Ryan Culpepper
00:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/stable] Fix version string - Eli Barzilay
00:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/stable] Revert "doc fixups for `struct' variants in `scheme/unit', etc." - Ryan Culpepper
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03:50 Nisstyre: Someone spill coffee on the server?
03:50 mithos28: Which server?
03:50 Nisstyre: racket-lang.org's
03:50 mithos28: Maybe
03:50 mithos28: The release was happening
03:50 mithos28: maybe something went wrong
03:51 Nisstyre: planet is one a different server I'm guessing?
03:51 Nisstyre: s/one/on/
03:52 mithos28: so is docs
03:52 Nisstyre: the root directory of docs loads, but nothing else
03:53 Nisstyre: oh seems to be fixed now
03:53 mithos28: nvm just cached
03:53 mithos28: still down for me
03:53 Nisstyre: damn
03:53 Nisstyre: yeah still down
03:54 Nisstyre: good thing there is a local copy of the documentation
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07:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/d194fa6245046c2e90a13c3e593409a2b6a4ba52
07:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `regexp-match' variants given a long string and an output port - Matthew Flatt
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08:08 soegaard: rudybot: init typed/racket
08:08 rudybot: soegaard: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
08:08 soegaard: rudybot: (for/product: : Exact-Rational ([i : Natural (in-range 10)]) 2/3)
08:08 rudybot: soegaard: error: Type Checker: Expected Integer, but got Exact-Rational in: #%top-interaction
08:09 soegaard: rudybot: (for/product: : Exact-Rational () 2/3)
08:09 rudybot: soegaard: ; Value: 2/3
08:09 rudybot: soegaard: ; stdout: "- : Exact-Rational\n"
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10:25 offby1: ahoy math guy!
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10:38 soegaard: ?
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11:01 offby1: !
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11:01 offby1: You wrote the numeric library, right?  I use it a lot.
11:02 offby1: so: howdy
11:02 offby1: that is all
11:03 soegaard: If you mean: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/soegaard/math.plt/1/5/number-theory.ss
11:03 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/8caj52p
11:04 soegaard: Currently rewriting it to Typed Racket.
11:04 soegaard: Coming along nicely.
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11:47 soegaard: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4350424
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11:54 asumu: soegaard: commented
11:54 soegaard: asumu: Nice example.
11:55 asumu: also see http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/xtomt/racket_53_is_out_with_submodules_new_optimization/
11:55 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/bta9ozc
11:57 soegaard: Well, it *is* difficult to see where the language ends and the program begins...
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12:09 MightyFoo: night all
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12:26 danl_ndi_: good morning
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12:27 danl_ndi_: does anyone have any examples of doing a tcp-connect with a configurable timeout? maybe tcp-connect/enable-break
12:27 danl_ndi_: ?
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13:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/d194fa624504...2256ca39ea8f
13:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add some highlighting to the line numbers to show where - Robby Findler
13:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] raise minimum memory limit in DrRacket to 8 megabytes - Robby Findler
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13:43 korkyra: i have problem with macro-stepper. When i try this simple macro in macro stepper, only the first repeat are expanded and i cannot step further to get expanded the secon repeat: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130907
13:45 korkyra: any help or explanation why is it so?
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13:46 jonrafkind: looks like a bug, if you uncheck 'hide racket syntax' then it will show you all the steps
13:46 jonrafkind: but that also shows you a lot of low level steps you dont care about
13:47 korkyra: is it really a bug?
13:49 korkyra: it seems that doesn't work even with 'hide racket syntax' unchecked
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13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/4a19ab40e87d67226f3090732d0d6a43013e2fe7
13:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add check for adjacent separators into tests - Robby Findler
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13:52 soegaard: Is there a better answer to give to DASD who asks about executables: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4350424
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13:59 jonrafkind: looks like kd0amg got it
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14:02 soegaard: yep
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14:22 jrslepak: soegaard: still beat me to the answer
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14:23 jrslepak: (though you can only tell if you reload at the right time)
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14:31 asumu: korkyra: works for me, but I have macro hiding disabled
14:31 asumu: on "standard" it doesn't seem to expand the inner use. I don't know why.
14:31 korkyra: asumu: i installed new racket version (5.3) today
14:32 korkyra: i'll try now once again with macro hiding disabled
14:32 asumu: Well, go ahead and report it as a bug since I think it shouldn't hide the inner use of repeat here.
14:34 korkyra: with macro hiding disabled it expand all but that unusable because so much is expanded so i can't se tree from forest
14:35 korkyra: asumu: i'am too lazy to report a bug... I already informed everybody here on IRC
14:35 korkyra: :)
14:37 korkyra: look like dyoo already submited that bug 6 months before: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=12508
14:39 korkyra: but obviously there are no answer... (maybe plt team should call Dr. Mark Tarver to rectify that thing hehehe
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15:05 korkyra: In Arc, data structures can be used wherever functions are, and they behave as functions from indices to whatever's stored there. So to get the first element of a string you say ("bar" 0), and this evaluate to #\b
15:06 korkyra: can something like that can be done in Racket?
15:06 korkyra: (with some clever macrology?)
15:07 korkyra: that seems far better to me than remebering vast number of string library functions
15:08 jonrafkind: you could overwrite #%app to do that
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15:09 korkyra: but i don't want only ("bar" 0) to work right, i also want (s 0) to work the same, where s is string "bar"
15:09 korkyra: is that posible to??
15:09 stamourv: Yes.
15:09 jonrafkind: yea
15:09 stamourv: If your `#%app' checks for `string?', it would work.
15:09 jonrafkind: (define (app value index) (cond [(string? value) (string-ref value index)] ...))
15:10 jonrafkind: since its a macro it could be made faster by checking if the value is a literal string
15:10 stamourv: Arc is implemented in Racket, and I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same trick to get their application syntax.
15:10 jonrafkind: im not sure what kind of slow down you would get by checking every single application to see what sort of value it is
15:11 soegaard: korkyra: Inspiration: http://blog.scheme.dk/2007/04/fun-with-macros-extending-application.html
15:11 korkyra: that part above is clear to me, but how to implement that part when first object is not a literal string but string variable
15:11 stamourv: jonrafkind: If you check the function case first, and have strings, vectors, etc. on the slow path, function applications shouldn't be much slower.
15:12 jonrafkind: korkyra, (string? x) will tell you if x is a string
15:12 jonrafkind: even if its a variable or a literal
15:12 stamourv: korkyra: The `string?' is part of the expansion. If will get executed at runtime, after the operand position has been evaluated to a value.
15:13 korkyra: but that's not macro than and have run-time repercussions (program slow-down)
15:13 jonrafkind: unless you have types theres nothing you can do about it
15:13 jonrafkind: since you dont know what an arbitrary variable might contain
15:13 korkyra: how clojure works with that?
15:13 jonrafkind: i dunno, is clojure typed?
15:13 jonrafkind: i thought it was
15:13 stamourv: korkyra: If you check for the function case first, the common case should not be slower. Applying strings would be slightly more expensive than applying function, though. You're right.
15:13 korkyra: i think not
15:14 asumu: Clojure is not typed.
15:14 stamourv: There's a guy working on Typed Clojure. Sounds pretty cool.
15:14 stamourv: It's basically Typed Racket, but adapted to clojure.
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15:15 soegaard: Also if you want to for your own data structure you can use prop:procedure to make a struct work like a function.
15:15 korkyra: do you guys ever considered to introduce arc's way to strings, hash-tables, etc in racket as a stamdard way?
15:17 stamourv: Included by default, no.
15:18 stamourv: That application syntax can cause some cases that should have been errors (e.g. strings in operator position) to silently succeed, giving a nonsense result.
15:18 stamourv: Which can make debugging harder.
15:18 stamourv: So, IMO, it's a great thing to have around, but maybe not the right default.
15:19 danl_ndi_: could be cool to have an special operator to open that syntax
15:19 stamourv: But for a separate #lang that would be optimized for conciseness, that would probably be the right thing.
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15:20 danl_ndi_: (-> "asdf" 2) = #\d
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15:21 korkyra: why am I asking all this? Here's why: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10449052/peter-norvigs-regular-expression-compiler-from-udacity-course-rewritten-in-rack
15:21 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/c5ag2s8
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15:21 korkyra: because i have noticed that unfortunately in python string operations are much much more concyse than in Racket
15:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/4a19ab40e87d...708228d959df
15:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Rackety - Robby Findler
15:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix double separator problem on windows - Robby Findler
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15:22 danl_ndi: python has the advantage of actual syntax
15:23 soegaard: korkyra: Maybe you'll like: https://github.com/soegaard/this-and-that/blob/master/brevity/brevity.rkt
15:24 korkyra: oh, codepad site is down. Here's the code that ilustrate that verbosity:
15:24 korkyra: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130909
15:24 soegaard: For example {a i} will works as (string-ref a i) ir (vector-ref a i) according to the type of a.
15:25 soegaard: Normal (a i) is not affected.
15:25 korkyra: soegaad, why this isn't standard library? :)
15:25 korkyra: it look nice
15:27 stamourv: korkyra: 5.3 has new string functions that were designed to make common cases easier.
15:27 stamourv: I forget which, though.
15:27 korkyra: yes, i saw that today
15:27 korkyra: but only few most common like split, join, etc
15:28 soegaard: I looked for what you called in-chars? the other day. It really should be included.
15:28 korkyra: but compare s[2:5] with (string-substring s 2 5)
15:29 korkyra: or similar
15:29 korkyra: whatever
15:29 soegaard: With brevity.rkt it becomes {sub s 2 5}
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15:29 danl_ndi: such features would require changing the fundamentals of s-expression application syntax
15:29 danl_ndi: which is a big change to the language... doable, but really a different language
15:29 korkyra: yes, it's shorter, but not short enough to beat python
15:30 korkyra: but, nicer lanbguage, danl
15:30 korkyra: :)
15:30 danl_ndi: debatable, but different none-the-less.
15:30 korkyra: no, of course, i'm not proposing that s[i:j] should be in racket
15:30 korkyra: but i'd like that (s i j) is
15:31 danl_ndi: you'd lose the function as a first class value, composition, and currying
15:31 korkyra: but clojure is not
15:32 danl_ndi: hmm, not familiar with closure's approach
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15:39 soegaard: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/subs
15:39 soegaard: Apart from the name the same as racket
15:42 asumu: Oh, wow. ClojureDocs is new(?) and nice.
15:42 asumu: I wish that was around when I did some Clojuring.
15:43 asumu: Also, we need some nice web design like that.
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15:57 asumu: I can't find any documentation for `this-syntax` in syntax/parse.
15:57 asumu: Am I just not looking hard enough?
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15:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/708228d959df...7eaae20f41e0
15:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Replaced references to abbrev.rkt with convenience.rkt. - Eric Dobson
15:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Rearange type code, so that abbrev.rkt can depend on union.rkt. - Eric Dobson
15:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Removed convenience.rkt from typed racket. - Eric Dobson
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15:59 korkyra: each data structure have it's own length function string-length, vector-lenght, hash-length, etc. It would really nice to have one function, len, for all that data structures
15:59 korkyra: because that would decrease cognitive burden
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16:00 stamourv: korkyra: Agreed.
16:01 stamourv: asumu and I are working on improving generics in Racket.
16:01 korkyra: yeah!!!!!!
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16:01 stamourv: Part of it is in 5.3. But there's more to come.
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16:01 korkyra: you are genious, stamourv (but not quite such as Dr. Mark Tarver, hehehe)
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16:01 stamourv: `sequence-length' probably does what you want, though.
16:02 dyoo: korkyra: followup: structured values can be callable as procedures if they provide a definition for prop:procedure
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16:02 stamourv: It works on all sequences, and strings, vectors, etc. are all sequences.
16:02 korkyra: dyoo, write nice tutorial about that hehee
16:02 dyoo: see: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/procedures.html#(def._((lib._racket/private/base..rkt)._prop~3aprocedure))
16:03 korkyra: wow, sequence-length! I didn't know that exist
16:03 korkyra: but for sure there is a cach 22
16:03 korkyra: ...
16:03 korkyra: or?
16:03 korkyra: cach 22
16:03 stamourv: I don't think so.
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16:04 stamourv: But it would be nice to have `length' itself be generic. Once we have a good story for generics, that's something we should do, IMO.
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16:05 asumu: stamourv: BTW, you use it a lot so do you know if `this-syntax` is actually documented?
16:06 stamourv: I don't know.
16:06 stamourv: rudybot: doc this-syntax
16:06 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
16:06 rudybot: stamourv: not found in any library's documentation: this-syntax
16:06 korkyra: yeah, it should be easy for "ordinary people" to write such generic functions and equaly important, that those be with no runtime penalty
16:06 stamourv: rudybot: doc define-generic
16:06 rudybot: stamourv: not found in any library's documentation: define-generic
16:06 stamourv: rudybot: doc define-generics
16:06 rudybot: stamourv: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: unstable/generics
16:06 dyoo: asumu: scanning this-syntax in documentation now... can't find it either
16:06 stamourv: Oh, rudybot is not on 5.3.
16:06 stamourv: korkyra: Check out racket/generic. You can use it to define your own generic functions.
16:07 asumu: dyoo: yeah, I did some manual text searching in the syntax/parse docs. I'll submit a bug report.
16:07 asumu: Or actually, I'll just ask Ryan.
16:08 (quit) dyoo: Quit: Page closed
16:09 korkyra: I'm so happy with this: http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/cs173/2012/OnLine/
16:09 (quit) kanak: Ping timeout: 255 seconds
16:09 korkyra: i hope that i will learn a lot
16:10 stamourv: Yeah, that sounds really cool!
16:11 korkyra: why this course is not on coursera or something? That would bring much wider audience to Racket
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16:12 stamourv: I don't know.
16:12 stamourv: Maybe they want to try with a smaller audience, to see if it works.
16:13 korkyra: of course it will!
16:14 asumu: Although it may get a pretty big audience. It's advertised on reddit now.
16:14 korkyra: i'm expecting that this course will be much harder than norvig's course on program design
16:14 asumu: (and I saw at least one person said they signed up there)
16:15 korkyra: on the other hand, on HN that announcment passed unnoticed
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16:27 soegaard: What is this? Python-inspired Racket? https://github.com/brownplt/Pyret
16:27 asumu: Yeah, it was demoed at RacketCon last year.
16:27 asumu: IIRC the idea was a Python-esque Racket for teaching, but don't quote me on that.
16:28 soegaard: :-)
16:42 Demosthenes: wow "buttery smooth"
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17:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 7 new commits to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/7eaae20f41e0...75efede59b26
17:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Use type aliases when printing full types. - Vincent St-Amour
17:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Allow multi-line printing of case-> types. - Vincent St-Amour
17:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Document zsh completion along with bash completion. - Vincent St-Amour
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21:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/dc6411c48cde7333db2acbe92f710c9a7652d550
21:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix futures-enabled? to use the correct #ifdef check - James Swaine
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