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08:38 Haffe: Hi. I read up on mixins. Is there some subtlility that separates a mix-in from a plain abstract base clase?
08:38 Haffe: I.e. virtual functions.
08:40 samth: Haffe: mixins are *functions* that take a class as input, and create a subclass with some new features
08:42 Haffe: Ok.
08:42 Haffe: Is it more correct to talk about them as class factories then?
08:42 Haffe: I.e. they produce real classes instead of just blueprinting them.
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08:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/AKilkw
08:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] give more time to some timing out tests - Robby Findler
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09:29 soegaard: Haffe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixin
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09:39 samth: Haffe: yes, that's one way to think about them
09:39 samth: but they're a specific kind of class factory
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10:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/HtClJA
10:38 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fixed a somewhat awkward error message that made 'system' look awkward - Matthias Felleisen
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10:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/SXTALQ
10:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Drop attempt to verify when running plainly. - Eli Barzilay
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11:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/IjRWXA
11:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] don't run db web-test - Ryan Culpepper
11:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] change id-tables so iterators not invalidated by mutation of existing keys - Ryan Culpepper
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11:14 stamourv: asumu: Agreed, that pull request is pretty neat.
11:14 tim-brown: nice weekend all!
11:14 stamourv: To you as well!
11:14 stamourv: (mine's in several hours still)
11:15 stamourv: asumu: One thing I wonder, though, is how much it affects compilation time.
11:15 stamourv: I guess the thing to do is to comment on the pull request. I'll do that later.
11:15 asumu: Will it matter for short cases?
11:15 asumu: (which I think are the majority anyway)
11:15 stamourv: I don't know.
11:16 stamourv: It just looks pretty sophisticated, which can mean it may take a while.
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11:21 dyoo: have a good weekend tim-brown
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12:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/jAS0qw
12:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] docs for revised system error message completed - Matthias Felleisen
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12:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/lGNeFA
12:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] More ignore patterns for props verification. - Eli Barzilay
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12:39 soegaard: Is this useful?   https://github.com/soegaard/require-github
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12:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nRItJQ
12:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Some simplification of process error message contracts. - Eli Barzilay
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13:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Ahbh8g
13:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Ensure that structs don't overlap with simple values. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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13:22 stamourv: soegaard: That's neat.
13:22 stamourv: soegaard: See also: https://github.com/samth/raco-git
13:24 samth: soegaard: you should make the branch and commit id both optional
13:25 asumu: Hmm, do we really have a `file/zip` library but no `file/unzip`?
13:25 samth: see http://npmjs.org/doc/install.html for possible inspiration
13:25 asumu: Seems like that PLaneT package should just be included in `file`
13:26 asumu: Yeah, it would be neat if (require github ...) could also raco link the repo for you as an option.
13:32 chimeracoder: asumu++
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13:44 soegaard: Making the commit id optional is easy to do. But omitting it will quickly lead to problems, when the repository owner updates his repository. Maybe with a keyword like  #:no-commit-is--any-breakage-is-my-own-fault ?
13:45 soegaard: asumu: Yeah. I was surprised about that too. At first I tried using gunzip, but handles only compression of single files.
13:46 soegaard: GitHub also provides tar.gz files, but I couldn't find a Racket implementation of untar.
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14:09 dyoo: does anyone know if the racket web server sends a header that reports last-modified-date?
14:09 offby1: not me!
14:09 dyoo: we're seeing some annoying caching behavior with our browser that I think is explained if the web server isn't sending that header
14:10 dyoo: hm.... ok, scanning source then
14:10 offby1: can you not get your answer by simply pointing "curl -v" at a Racket web server?
14:11 dyoo: offby1: checking; thanks for suggestion
14:12 dyoo: darn, the header is there.  Rats.  There goes that theory.
14:13 asumu: soegaard: hmm, yeah you're right. There's only tar creation. Weird.
14:13 asumu: samth: is it just me or is our mzlib/thread coroutine library very low level?
14:14 asumu: Yielding from one coroutine to another seems to require manual scheduling.
14:14 offby1 , destroying pleasant theories on line since 1993
14:14 asumu: via a channel, say.
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14:19 dyoo: offby1: ah, but it does not include the Expires or Cache-Control headers.  ok, so the theory isn't so dead after all
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14:29 offby1: and curl still rocks!
14:33 samth: soegaard: i think mostly when you're pointing at a git repo, it will be one you control, or that someone you know controls
14:33 Araq: samth: what would be the right place to start
14:34 Araq: I'm looking for some information about racket's macro system
14:34 Araq: in particular how hygiene is implemented
14:34 samth: I would look at this paper: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/expmodel-6/ and the redex model there
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14:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 7 new commits to release: http://git.io/jvuRHA
14:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] macro-expander fix - Matthew Flatt
14:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] fix *SL errortrace to support higher phases - Matthew Flatt
14:35 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] another `namespace-attach-module' repair for submodules - Matthew Flatt
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14:36 Araq: samth: excellent, thanks
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14:39 soegaard: samth: true
14:39 samth: soegaard: at least, i think that's how it's used in node.js
14:40 soegaard: asumu: About untag: Not too suprising. Since tar is *really* old the format is to my recollection very arcane/convoluted.
14:42 soegaard: dyoo: Apropos fighting the browser. It took me while to figure out how to delete appcache files from Chrome. Clearing the normal cache in Chrome is not enough.
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14:54 asumu: Okay, now I'm confused. file/zip is apparently just a fork of Dave Herman's zip.plt package.
14:54 asumu: But I guess unzip was never ported?
14:54 soegaard: huh?
15:04 samth: asumu: JFDI :P
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15:07 asumu: samth: I'm JFDI-ing some mzlib crap right now.
15:07 samth: asumu: yay!
15:07 asumu: I used both italics and bold to tell people not to use defmacro.
15:07 samth: well done
15:07 asumu: BTW: you think mzlib/thread is worth moving over?
15:07 samth: you might point to eli's blog post
15:08 asumu: The coroutines there are not too useful.
15:08 samth: i dunno
15:08 asumu: (though they are used in the framework)
15:08 samth: ask more broadly and/or matthew and matthias
15:08 samth: or robby
15:08 samth: since they're the ones who'd know why it exists
15:08 samth: maybe there was a time that continuations existed but threads didn't
15:08 asumu: Funny enough it doesn't use continuations.
15:08 asumu: Only threads.
15:09 samth: also, in the framework, seriously?
15:09 asumu: Yeah, the syntax colorer.;
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16:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to release: http://git.io/IfAo8w
16:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] fixed a somewhat awkward error message that made 'system' look awkward - Matthias Felleisen
16:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] Drop attempt to verify when running plainly. - Eli Barzilay
16:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/release] docs for revised system error message completed - Matthias Felleisen
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16:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/qyeRQg
16:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Move mzlib/defmacro => racket/defmacro - Asumu Takikawa
16:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Move mzlib/integet-set => data/integer-set - Asumu Takikawa
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16:34 soegaard: samth: Now commit-id and branch are optional. https://github.com/soegaard/require-github/blob/master/main.rkt
16:40 soegaard: Omitting the commit-id will provoke a http request to GitHub in order to check what the commit-id of the head is.
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16:58 ASau: eli: is there anything useful I can report about crashing tests?
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17:49 soegaard: I added support for checking out arbitrary commit-ids. Using prefix-in one can now compare functions from two different commits.
17:49 soegaard: Couldn't figure out how to do it without relying on command line git :-(
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17:53 crdueck: hello, is it possible to download just the mzscheme interpreter without the Dr.Racket IDE?
17:53 jonrafkind: yea you can get the textual version
17:53 jonrafkind: http://download.racket-lang.org/racket-textual-v5.2.1.html
17:54 eli: ASau: If you can get a stack trace, that's usually very helpful for Matthew to find the problem.
17:55 eli: crdueck: That gets you just the command-line, but usually that's not what you want, since it's a very limited distribution.
17:55 eli: There's no problem to use the command-line though, even if you downloaded the usual distribution.
17:55 eli: And two notes: "mzscheme" is a compatibility executable, you should use the "racket" executable; second, Racket is much more of a "compiler" than an "interpreter".
17:56 crdueck: eli: i only want the mzscheme cli, not the full distro. I havent used the Dr.Racket IDE in a long time
17:56 jonrafkind: who rang the call of CthulEli
17:56 crdueck: jonrafkind: thanks, that seems to be what i'm looking for
17:57 eli: crdueck: Still, the full distribution is much more likely to be what you want.
17:57 eli: For example, if you want to do any kind of gui, you don't get that with the textual distribution.
17:57 crdueck: eli: i only want to be able to compile/interpret *.rkt source files
17:57 eli: The question is what should these source files do?
17:57 crdueck: nothing gui
17:58 eli: There's a whole bunch of libraries that are not included in the textual version too.
17:58 crdueck: if i find that i'm missing something, i'll redownload the full distribution. Until then, i'd like to use the more lightweight textual version
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17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/0bocrA
17:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Missing file for commit 3582b57 - Asumu Takikawa
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17:59 eli: Just to clarify, the only way in which it is "lighter" is in not having a bunch of stuff, otherwise it's the same.
17:59 eli: jonrafkind: I'm here almost by accident.
18:00 ASau: Oh, and by the way.
18:01 ASau: While I'm here.
18:01 ASau: eli: is it possible that you (as team) organize real release?
18:02 eli: ASau: What do you mean?
18:02 ASau: I've got complaints that all distributed source archives have different cryptographic hashes.
18:02 eli: You mean the tgz files that we create?
18:02 ASau: Yes.
18:02 ASau: As if all mirror sites generate something different.
18:02 eli: Oh, you mean different downloads of the same file have different hashes?
18:02 ASau: Yes.
18:02 eli: Which file?
18:03 eli: Better: which URLs?
18:03 ASau: E.g. this one:
18:03 ASau: SHA1 (racket-5.2.1-src-unix.tgz) = a4ea408818236f8eaf937291dd641fd73a997793
18:03 ASau: RMD160 (racket-5.2.1-src-unix.tgz) = 20852c851aee25d79ee83bc3a18d45eed39aeebf
18:03 ASau: Size (racket-5.2.1-src-unix.tgz) = 17210561 bytes
18:04 eli: And which sites have different numbers?
18:04 ASau: Well... I need to test it.
18:04 eli will test it too
18:04 ASau: These sites are listed as mirrors:
18:04 ASau: http://download.racket-lang.org/installers/
18:04 ASau: http://www.eecs.northwestern.edu/racket/
18:04 ASau: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/installers/
18:04 ASau: http://mirror.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/mirror/racket/
18:04 ASau: ftp://infogroep.be/pub/racket/installers/
18:04 ASau: http://russell.cs.bilgi.edu.tr/racket-installers/
18:06 ASau: And we distribute our copy cached somewhere in netbsd.org.
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18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 14 new commits to master: http://git.io/sLbF2g
18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Change Optimization Coach message. - Vincent St-Amour
18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Disable loop detection heuristic with too many false positives. - Vincent St-Amour
18:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Only enable Optimization Coach button in Typed Racket. - Vincent St-Amour
18:06 (part) RacketCommitBot
18:07 eli: ASau: I tried this: curl "$1" | sha1sum
18:07 eli: And for all of the mirrirs of that file I get: b51cdd8b9825edb60e5c2c80472cec8220918cd1
18:08 ASau: Then you have changed the file some time between the release and now.
18:08 eli: No.
18:08 eli: Also, I have a different size: 17211427
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18:10 ASau: curl -q http://download.racket-lang.org/installers/5.2.1/racket-5.2.1-src-unix.tgz | sha1
18:10 ASau: 873d5706e83c66c181c14d3c43a07d366a84dc5f
18:10 eli: ASau: Actually there was *one* change to the file -- following the easter egg bug, but this was ages ago: http://lists.racket-lang.org/announce/archive/2012/000067.html
18:10 eli: Otherwise we never change files, since that can be a problem with mirrors.
18:12 ASau: curl -q http://www.eecs.northwestern.edu/racket/5.2.1/racket-5.2.1-src-unix.tgz | sha1
18:12 ASau: eddd48f66176bc0fc5bf41ac2c1b8dd85b3247bd
18:12 ASau: Two files, two different sums.
18:13 ASau: Three, if counting your test.
18:13 eli: ASau: Heh, that explains it...
18:13 eli: curl -q http://www.eecs.northwestern.edu/racket/5.2.1/racket-5.2.1-src-unix.tgz | file -
18:14 eli: /dev/stdin: HTML document text
18:14 eli: You're missing a "racket" in the path, so you're looking at the error pages of the different servers.
18:16 ASau: Ah, right.
18:16 ASau: Still, the original sum was a4ea408818236f8eaf937291dd641fd73a997793
18:16 crdueck: i'm getting a compile error trying to build racket-textual. "cd src && ./configure --prefix=/usr && make" returns errors in gc2/sighand.c "attempts to dereference a pointer to an incomplete type in function "fault_handler"
18:17 eli: ASau: which checksum are you using?
18:17 eli: chandler: Which configuration?  (And why not use one of the pre-built binaries?)
18:17 chandler raises an eyebrow at eli 
18:18 ASau: eli: it is written above, SHA1 and RMD160.
18:18 ASau: SHA-1 in this particular case.
18:18 eli: ASau: So the sha1sum that I received from all mirrors is what I listed above...
18:18 eli: chandler: ?
18:19 chandler: eli: I think your question was for crdueck.
18:19 ASau: eli: But if you did replace file, that explains it.
18:19 ASau: Though you'd rather release 5.2.2 or 5.2.1.1 instead...
18:19 eli: chandler: Ah, yes, sorry.
18:20 eli: crdueck: Which configuration?  (And why not use one of the pre-built binaries?)
18:20 eli: ASau: That was done then -- in march, and it was an unusual repackaging because it was a tiny change just to go around the bug.
18:21 eli: IIRC, it was the first time we did it.
18:21 ASau: Well... It would be nice if it was the last time you did it too. :)
18:21 eli: One of the factors was to cut down the time, since a proper release for that would have delayed it, and the bug was a 24-hour thing anyway.
18:21 crdueck: eli: i'm sorry, what do you mean by which configuration? i downloaded the unix source for racket-textual and ran those commands.
18:21 ASau: It is much easier to call back particular release than particular distributed file.
18:22 eli: crdueck: Sorry, which architecture?
18:22 ASau: crdueck: what does "uname -mrs" report?
18:22 eli: ASau: The src before and after the change have just one line of difference, and like I said it was an unusual move.
18:23 crdueck: eli: Linux 3.4.4-3 x86_64
18:24 eli: crdueck: That sounds strange -- which distribution is it?  What kind of a machine is it?
18:25 crdueck: eli: distro is Archlinux. Its a desktop, built myself. Intel i5 2500k CPU if it matters
18:30 eli: crdueck: If your GCC is also as new as that kernel (which seems to be extremely new), then you should post such problems on the mailing list, preferably with a detailed build log.
18:30 eli: You can also try to use one of the prebuilt installers, but they'll probably need some compatibility libraries.
18:32 crdueck: eli: my gcc is very up to date as well, v4.7.1.
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18:32 eli: samth_away, stamourv: What problem do you have with swindle?
18:33 eli: asumu: The order in which you see the results is how they're put in the index -- that is, there is no re-ordering that happens in the JS side,
18:33 eli: so it's possible to control the order in which things appear, but it's a dangerous game...
18:34 eli: crdueck: To clarify, the newer GCC version is much more likely to cause such problems, I just guessed that you have a new GCC based on the fact that you have a ~2 months old kernel.
18:35 eli: crdueck: In any case, try the above, and/or report errors; these kind of errors are good to know about in advance since they'll become more real as more distros get updated.
18:36 eli: But that does mean that even the upcoming 5.3 release will be too old for you (assuming that it gets fixed),
18:36 eli: but at least that's something that you should expect when you work with a near-bleeding-edge configuration.
18:37 eli: crdueck: BTW#2, we have a bunch of build machines, and I don't think that any of them is anywhere near using those GCC/kernel versions.
18:42 asumu: crdueck: aren't you running make in the wrong folder?
18:42 asumu: crdueck: you need to be in src/build.
18:43 asumu: eli: some bindings don't appear at all, e.g., from `scheme` or `mzscheme`. Are these just not indexed then?
18:43 asumu: (in which case I guess I can specify no indexing on some mzlib libraries where appropriate0
18:44 eli: asumu: re crdueck's problem -- the build works in any directory, only "less recommended" in src itself, but should generally work; in any case, that is very unlikely to be the problem.
18:44 asumu: Ah, ok.
18:44 eli: asumu: I don't know, you can just look at the index file yourself for them...
18:45 eli: The JS thing also doesn't do any filtering, other that the results of the search of course.
18:45 asumu: Ok, I'll look into it once things settle down more re: where to put mzlib stuff.
18:47 eli: asumu: OK, bear in mind that looking into it also means looking into putting racket(/*) first etc.
18:48 eli: (And IIRC, there is something that does that already, but I don't remember.)
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18:52 crdueck: eli: i got it to compile. I dont think its an GCC issue, but i certainly could be wrong. Would you mind taking a look at src/racket/gc2/sighand.c?
18:53 eli: crdueck: (Give me 5 minutes...)
18:53 crdueck: okay. maybe its more appropriate as a mailing list post
19:03 eli: crdueck: Well, if it's an easy fix, then now is a good time, since we're close to releasing a new version.
19:03 eli: In any case, I'm looking at it now.
19:04 crdueck: okay, i'm just about to post on the mailing list. give me 1 more min
19:04 crdueck: it'll be better explained there
19:04 crdueck: the dev@racket-lang.org list
19:04 eli: crdueck: OK, if you wrote it than that's fine.
19:04 eli: Yes.
19:06 crdueck: ah, i posted it before i confirmed registration to the mailing list. should i repost?
19:07 eli: crdueck: Since you subscribed shortly after the post, you should ignore the email that you got from me when I made it go from the moderation queue...
19:07 eli: No need to repost.
19:07 crdueck: okay
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19:13 eli: crdueck: Sounds like it's a change in GCC or in the kernel...
19:13 eli: http://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2012-03/msg00414.html
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19:15 crdueck: okay, so like you said, its only an issue with newer compilers/glibc versions.
19:15 crdueck: well, at least you're aware of the issue for future reference, and I have my build working
19:16 eli: crdueck: I'll let Matthew do the change (he's the guy that handles the C core), and it seems like it shouldn't break existing platforms, so fixing it shouldn't be a problem.
19:17 crdueck: okay, thats great if it'll make it into the new release
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19:23 eli: jonrafkind: dev ping
19:23 jonrafkind: eli, horse pong
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19:24 jonrafkind: is this re the ubuntu package?
19:24 eli: Yes.
19:24 eli: Maybe it's a bremner ping.
19:24 eli: Or a jamessan ping.
19:25 jonrafkind: where did you come up with 'dev ping'. just now?
19:25 jonrafkind: I thought I had fixed the jpeg62 thing already..
19:25 eli: Yes, I'm creative like that at these hours.
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19:44 asumu: eli: you think `compat` is better than `compatibility`? (the former is nicer to type...)
19:45 eli: asumu: I didn't mean to suggest any name, I'd be fine with either one.
19:45 eli: (I'd usually argue for a more convenient `compat' but in this case a less convenient name might be considered a feature by some people.)
19:46 eli produces a generic sigh at the proliferation of GH/SO-induced markdown quotes, BTW.
19:46 asumu: How do you prefer to quote?
19:46 asumu: Matthew style?
19:46 eli: Like `this' not like `that`.
19:47 eli: What's Matthew style?
19:47 asumu: I think he does what you just did.
19:47 eli: Ah, yes; but that's a very old style.
19:47 asumu: I find it easier to type markdown quotes. It has the advantage of formatting in markdown too.
19:47 eli: See for example Emacs, or many ancient lisp codes.
19:48 eli: I don't follow -- what's the advantage?
19:51 asumu: Hmm, I thougt github might have formatted commit messages and such in markdown but I guess not.
19:52 asumu: Anyway, `...` also makes it obvious that the quoted thing is code if you know markdown.
19:52 eli: asumu: Ah, yes, I know it does -- but that's not an advantage of `x` quotes, just the fact that it uses that; had markdown used `x's, it would have the same advantage, as well as being friendlier to lots of texts.
19:52 asumu: (but this isn't really a serious benefit, I just do it because it's easier)
19:52 eli: Ha, I laugh at your "obvious"...
19:53 eli: asumu: Instead of {append}, you can use {,@} inside a quasiquote ({`}), as in {`(,@x ,@y)}.
19:53 eli: Try to format that...
19:54 eli: In SO, I tried this: Instead of `append`, you can use `,@` inside a quasiquote (```), as in ``(,@x ,@y)`.
19:54 eli: And it breaks.
19:54 eli: I think that github has some hack for backquotes which would break in some other way.
19:55 eli: Yeah, fails in GH too.
19:56 asumu: Yeah, so I usually give up on quoting complex expression in e-mails too. I figure that if it looks like an s-expression I don't need to quote it.
19:56 asumu: And on GH, I'd just use the four-space thing unless I really wanted it in-line.
19:58 eli: asumu: I have a long love-hate relationship with markdowns.
19:58 eli: Mostly hate.
19:59 eli: I like to see how they deteriorate at the edge cases, usually with no good solution.
20:00 eli: And eventually they tend to go down the wikipedia way, where you end up with markdown -> markdown with some extensions -> markdown with some extensions and some html-isms -> a completely new document DSL that nobody except for 5 wizards know how to deal with.
20:00 asumu: Yeah, and parsing it is obnoxious.
20:01 asumu: Maybe I should just write my e-mails @racket[...]
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20:03 eli: asumu: Looking more at the GH thing, they're at a more advanced stage than I though.
20:03 eli: t.
20:03 eli: The have HTML-like thing for <pre> and for <table>
20:03 eli: s/The/They/
20:04 eli: And they have a list of differences from standard markdown, which means that now you're not only going against a single pile of hacks, but you need to learn multiple piles.
20:05 eli: asumu: And re @racket -- that's why I kept the scribble/html language as something that only uses plain html names, I think that the @ syntax makes it lightweight again without the problems of markdown.
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20:17 eli: asumu: Instead of `append`, you can use `,@` inside a quasiquote (`` ` ``), as in ``(,@x ,@y)`.
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20:17 eli: "Obviously".
20:20 eli: asumu: this fails too: One space in `x y`, and two spaces in `x  y`.
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20:23 asumu: What, the spacing is ignored? That's odd.
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20:34 eli: asumu: in case you want to have more fun, https://github.com/fletcher/MultiMarkdown/wiki/MultiMarkdown-Syntax-Guide
20:35 eli: There are two nice meta jokes there: one is that parts of that page are messed up,
20:35 eli: the other is the huge amount of syntax, and (as usual) the extremely complicated way to deal with tables.
20:36 eli: And the joke in here is to contrast this with: "Sometimes, you just want to easily make certain words **bold**, and certain words *italicized* without having to remember the syntax."
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20:36 eli: (Because, obviously, it's "obvious".)
20:37 asumu: Hah, my IRC client bolded *italicized*.
20:38 eli: Yeah, that's not surprising...
20:40 eli: FWIW, every encounter I had with any kind of markdown was similar: in the beginning it looks really nice, then I dig in, hold in the vomit reflex, and conclude that nothing beats a proper markup, so it's better to have a lightweight markup instead of the illusion of a markdown.
20:40 eli: (Which, btw, ultimately lead to the @-syntax.)
20:43 asumu: eli: BTW, the @-syntax came way before Scribble right? With the mzpp stuff?
20:43 asumu: Or was it even before that?
20:44 asumu: (or is that convergent evolution instead?)
20:44 eli: It was a very evolutionary thing.
20:44 eli: The mzpp thing was an attempt that used something similar, but with a weird text-based processing.
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20:45 eli: (actually mztext, I think)
20:45 eli: And even that was a step on many attempts I played with, for many years.
20:46 eli: And re the name and what came before what, "scribble" was the name I used for the syntax, first.
20:46 eli: Then Matthew built the documentation system later, and we decided to call it scribble too.
20:46 eli: And now the latter is the more dominant...
20:54 eli: asumu: Meta-intuition -- when some mark{up,down} author fails at documenting their own thing properly, you can safely assume bad hacks.
20:54 eli: For example: http://txt2tags.org/userguide/VerbatimLineVerbatimArea.html
20:54 eli: Which has: A line beginning with 3 consecutive backquotes, followed by a space, followed by the text, ""`"" like this``
20:55 eli: (Which is why I was particularly pleased to see how the @-syntax can describe itself conveniently.)
20:55 eli: (And BTW, txt2tags is the markdown that Dorai liked when I talked to him about it N years ago.)
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22:49 mithos28: Is there a possibility of live streaming/timely videos of racketcon for those of us who likely won't be able to make it there in person?
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