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00:29 Nisstyre: Does anyone actually use cddddr?
00:38 jonrafkind: all day every day
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01:21 veer: would it be useful for  max function in racket to also return index of the maximum argument ?
01:21 veer: It is convenient to do:
01:21 veer: (define v (map something->number lst))
01:21 veer: (define-values (max-arg arg-indx) (apply max v))
01:21 veer: (list-ref lst arg-index)
01:23 mithos28: I think a separate function like that might be useful but I wouldn't suggest changing max
01:24 veer: mithos28: yes that is also fine
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09:02 neilv: http://i.imgur.com/WtATv.png
09:13 noelw: cool
09:15 neilv: if i get really averse to real work this weekend, i could make a character-terminal forms library :)
09:17 neilv: i think the main use for this will be for things like an easy way to have a server process display status info when you run it in a "screen" session
09:19 Cryovat thinks of all-Racket Ncurses alternative and salivates
09:21 neilv: it's all-racket except it calls out to "stty" executable at open and close time
09:21 neilv: no c
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09:28 untrusted: maybe interesting in this context: http://ivan.kanis.fr/nterm.html
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10:11 neilv: on my particular machine, with my particular version of rxvt, i even get unique escape sequences to the tty for things like the windows menu button and shift-left-arrow
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11:06 asumu: So I was almost able to get racket/gui widgets to programmatically render in a Scribble document:
11:06 asumu: https://gist.github.com/2936908
11:06 asumu: Unfortunately, it doesn't work for some widgets.
11:10 neilv: that could be cool. just a few hours ago, i saw an ascii-art gui dialog in the gui manual
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12:42 didi: I'm trying to use racket/stream as I've being taught in SICP but obviously failing. Is it possible to create a infinite stream of 1's like (define ones (stream-cons 1 ones)) (which doesn't work)?
12:43 jonrafkind: works for me
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12:43 jonrafkind: rudybot: (require racket/stream)
12:43 rudybot: jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready
12:43 rudybot: jonrafkind: Done.
12:44 jonrafkind: rudybot: (define ones (stream-cons 1 ones))
12:44 rudybot: jonrafkind: Done.
12:44 jonrafkind: rudybot: (stream-first ones)
12:44 rudybot: jonrafkind: ; Value: 1
12:44 didi: rudybot: (stream-first (stream-rest ones))
12:44 rudybot: didi: your sandbox is ready
12:44 rudybot: didi: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: ones in module: 'program
12:45 didi: jonrafkind: Hum... You're right.
12:45 jamessan: each person has their own sandbox in rudybot, so you'll need to (require racket/stream)
12:49 didi: Yeah, "learning" is a bumpy road.
12:51 didi: Hum. `stream-map' apparently only accepts one stream.
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12:54 jonrafkind: thats a good point, it should accept multiple streams like regular map
12:54 jonrafkind: do you want to make a bug report about it?
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12:54 didi: jonrafkind: sure.
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12:54 didi: jonrafkind: How do I do it?
12:54 jonrafkind: do you have drracket?
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12:54 jonrafkind: i think its help -> bug report
12:54 didi: I guess, although I don't use it.
12:54 jonrafkind: otherwise goto http://bugs.racket-lang.org
12:54 jonrafkind: and fill it out
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12:55 didi: Will do.
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13:09 didi: jonrafkind: Done. :^)
13:09 jonrafkind: cool
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16:44 asumu: Aha, now I have true keyword based init for racket/class.
16:44 asumu: Though the code needs a lot of cleanup.
16:45 stamourv: :D
16:45 asumu: But in any case, this will work (class object% (init #:hi [hi 5]) ...)
16:45 asumu: and (new foobar% #:hi 3.14)
16:46 asumu: (and fully backwards compatible)
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16:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/W9sTwQ
16:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] yet more fixes to avoid compiler warnings - Matthew Flatt
16:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] minor guide corrections - Matthew Flatt
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18:29 Shambles_: It appears that #f is usually used as a sentinel value where NULL would be in most languages.  Is that correct?
18:31 Shambles_: And if that is the custom, is there some recommended alternative for when you need to mark something that's normally boolean as "undefined"?
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18:34 danking: Shambles_: (define-struct some (x)) (define-struct none ()) ?
18:36 Shambles_: danking: I guess that could work.  Technically anything other than a boolean would work.  I was just wondering what the convention was.  I'm running into a lot of things that use #f and I wondered if that was what you were supposed to use, and if there was a typical alternative in that corner case.
18:38 danking: Shambles_: I think I'm the black sheep here but I think ML is really neat and therefore like to use option types. It's a bit more verbose and maybe less efficient, but it lends itself well to my ubiquitous use of `match' expressions.
18:40 Shambles_: danking: I'm starting to think I'm a black sheep for /not/ liking ML-style type systems, really.  It's not the type inference that bothers me, it's that the types are more complex than the usual 'basic' types, and you can't avoid dealing with that (which bothers me greatly when I just want to get something written quickly, especially if I only care about the data, not the code, like with automating something).
18:40 Shambles_: danking: In any case Racket has a very, very capable matching facility that can work on values, types, and other things (e.g. tree structures).
18:44 danking: Shambles_: Racket's `match' is absolutely better than ML's pattern matching. \\ For everything but the most simple experiments, I find that clearly describing the algebraic data types elucidates problems in my data structure or make clear the path to a working algorithm.
18:44 danking: s/make/makes/
18:44 danking: But, ymmv.
18:47 Shambles_: danking: I think the people working on languages with complex type systems don't recognize that exploratory coding is often necessary, and if the language doesn't support it well, then people will use something else, even if they end up translating back into the requires-precognition language (as is often done from <more usable language here> -> C++).
18:48 Shambles_: danking: They also don't seem to recognize that sometimes only the data matters.  Doing system administration I regularly bang out throw away (yes, really, I delete them myself) scripts to do things like rename or convert a set of messily named files into something consistent.  I don't care if my program works for /all/ inputs, so long as it works for /my/ inputs.
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18:50 Shambles_: danking: Despite how that sounds it's not an excuse for general sloppy coding, it's just recognizing that sometimes the coding has to start out sloppy, or it's okay if the program is disposable.
18:56 danking: Shambles_: I don't use ML or friends for something like updating a couple hundred XML files (*shudder*, poor employment choices in my past). I used Ruby for that (though, I hope there are yet better choices). In my limited experience, I found that I like to define the structure/type of my data ahead of time. It helps me frame the problem. I don't usually do this with simple text processing, even if it is a lot of text processing.
18:56 danking: I guess I'm saying, use different langauges for different domains? #lang typeless-text-processor and #lang ml.
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18:59 Shambles_: danking: Currently my "best tool for that kind of thing" is IPython, which has replaced Bash for my shell-ish tasks (and desktop calculator).  I may start using Scsh, or see if I can bring what's missing of it over to Racket, once I become competent enough.  Mostly though, anything is better than the traditional tools.  Bash falls flat on its face should your files/directories include strange characters, like space.
19:00 danking: :P. Some day I'll finally fix SCSH and write SCSHi (interactive) and drop bash by the wayside. I still don't really grok its syntax.
19:01 Shambles_: danking: As for defining the structure of things leading to clean code, in my experience, it tends to go the other way.  I tend to commit to some sort of data structure that 'looks pretty' in my head or drawn out on paper, then try to code the procedures that work on it.  OO design, and all that.  Then I find out that the algorithms are fugly, and have to be that way if I keep the same data structure...
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19:02 danking: Shambles_: It's a feedback loop, I suppose. The data structures inform the initial implementation and the initial implementation inform improvements to the data structures ad infinitum.
19:02 Shambles_: danking: So I have to go back and re-define the data structures, then rewrite the algorithms...  This iterates until, hopefully, it's all pretty, or at least the ugliness everywhere is minimized, or contained in one small place.
19:03 Shambles_: danking: So any language that forces me to overcommit to a data structure and makes that even more unpleasant to change isn't helping me. :P
19:04 Shambles_: danking: I'm probably rusty now, but I have, in the past, understood Bash deeply.  The experience is very much like 80's basic.  It goes through a few stages.
19:05 danking: Shambles_: I don't believe ML forces overcommitment. It just forces you to *actually* commit to what you claim to use.
19:05 Shambles_: WOW!  This is fun!  It's so much easier than doing it by hand.
19:06 Shambles_: Uhh...  Why doesn't my code work?  I mean, the concept is simple.  I'm doing it the way I'm /supposed/ to (GOTO's everywhere in BASIC, spawning a billion processes to deal with Bash's insufficiency in Bash).
19:08 Shambles_: Then the enlightenment following realizing why the "way you're supposed to" in that language is /bad/ (e.g. you convert to a "GOTO Considered Harmful" believer), usually leading to switching to another language (e.g. Python or Scheme for shell stuff).  Eventually later you get old and grouchy and start believing in "GOTO /Usually but not Always/ Considered Harmful". :P
19:08 danking: I like my tail calls optimized, personally :P.
19:10 Shambles_: That's not a feature to me.  Loops, tail-recursion, it's all the same to me.  I want stuff that makes it easier to express myself.  That is, to express things more easily, rather than express things I already can in different (but not easier) ways.
19:12 Shambles_: Iteration doesn't scare me.  Mutation only scares me when multithreading is involved, but of course that's important.  Recursion only pleases me when I might need to 'back up' and do more work.
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22:05 asumu: Types are nice sometimes. I was working earlier today in a giant macro and had to modify one step of syntax processing. Unfortunately, I had no idea what the incoming data's shape really was.
22:06 asumu: So I had to guess & check my way to a working function.
22:06 asumu: A type annotation here would have helped.
22:07 asumu: (or if all code was written via the design recipe, that's ok too)
22:08 adu: I don't like that
22:08 adu: that's why I like types too
22:09 adu: also, I just recently learned about prescheme
22:09 adu: which was apparently a typed scheme developed for scheme->c
22:11 adu: is it possible to extract information from typed racket?
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22:12 adu: like a small program to get the signature of a function?
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22:50 Shambles_: adu: (:print-type e)  seems to do what you want, not that you're still here to see this
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22:52 mithos28_: adu: What do you mean the signature of a function? How is that different than its type?
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22:55 Shambles_: asumu: Was it impossible to use "write" with the standard output port do basically 'printf-debugging'?  At least that's what I would have attempted if I didn't know what something was.
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