00:01 asumu: (I don't know if there was ever a list of pre-scheme's special forms and built-in operations)
00:01 asumu: (can't find a paper enumerating them and the source code doesn't help either)
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00:11 adu: pre-what?
00:12 Kaylin suspects it's supposed to be plt
00:13 danking: adu: A dialect of Scheme for systems programming. There's a paper by Kelsey which explains it.
00:13 adu: wow
00:13 adu: that's awsome
00:13 Kaylin: oic
00:13 adu: sounds like S-expression C
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00:14 danking: adu: It's a bit different than that.
00:15 danking: But it has no garbage collector, and is statically typed via type reconstruction.
00:15 neilv: as opposed to "blt scheme", which is a plan for lunch
00:22 danking: So, I'm reading Wand's "Continuation-Based Multiprocessing" and it feels like reading Shakespeare: Understandable, but everything feels a bit weird. The Scheme he's using uses `(define fname (args ...) body)' procedure definition syntax and I think it calls `call/cc' `catch'.
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00:24 adu: fascinating
00:25 adu: why have I not heard of pre-scheme before
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00:49 asumu: danking: I find it funny that some of the syntax still persists. Like the `block` syntax from that paper works in Racket.
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00:50 asumu: rudybot: (require racket/block)
00:50 rudybot: asumu: your sandbox is ready
00:50 rudybot: asumu: Done.
00:50 asumu: rudybot: (define (scheme-demo-1 x) (set! x 3) ((lambda (x) (set! x 4)) x) x)
00:50 rudybot: asumu: Done.
00:50 asumu: rudybot: (scheme-demo-1 18342)
00:50 rudybot: asumu: ; Value: 3
00:50 danking: adu: Probably because Scheme48 is not used much anymore. You might also find SCSH interesting. There was an effort to revive SCSH: https://github.com/scheme, but it has petered out.
00:51 danking: rudybot: (require racket/block)
00:51 rudybot: danking: Done.
00:51 danking: rudybot: (block 1 2 3)
00:51 rudybot: danking: ; Value: 3
00:51 danking: rudybot: Why, oh why!
00:51 rudybot: danking: oh, no. I got a new battery instead.
00:52 asumu: Oh whoops, I forgot to actually use `block` didn't I. Hahah.
00:52 danking: asumu: In this paper Wand used `block' forms everywhere, apparently there were no implict blocks in the body of a `lambda' or a `letrec' (which he calls `label').
00:53 asumu: Yeah. I bet there are Schemes where that's still true.
00:54 asumu: danking: also, I like how you have the Scheme Underground on github.
00:56 danking: asumu: :D
00:56 danking: asumu: Now, if we could only get SCSH off the ground again. I think my compiler chops are probably up to the job now.
00:57 neilv: scsh in racket?
00:57 neilv: someone could also rewrite xmonad in racket, so that i don't have to learn haskell
00:58 danking: neilv: #lang scsh has been discussed, but this particular effort was an attempt to simply make the scheme48 implementation of scsh work properly.
00:58 danking: It's filled with the warts of bit-rot.
00:59 danking: The super-long-term goal was to port Edwin to SCSH.
01:01 neilv: another summer project for someone is to build onto drracket more general-purpose file and window conveniences, to make it easier for people to use drracket instead of be switching between drracket and emacs
01:02 asumu: It would be great if there were an xmonad-like in Racket. I could dogfood my WM then.
01:02 asumu: (unfortunately X programming is hard and involves substantial FFI work)
01:02 asumu: (would be a great hackfest project maybe)
01:03 adu: danking: thanks
01:03 adu is not a fan of bit rot
01:03 danking is also not a fan.
01:03 danking: asumu: :/ If I wasn't going away we should totally do a racket hackfest.
01:04 adu: it would be nice if software tried to be current
01:04 adu: there was a clojure hackfest today (near me)
01:05 adu: I feel like a traitor, I use guile
01:05 adu: I'd like to use racket though
01:05 adu: it seems more theory-friendly
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02:03 didi: Is there a way to print a real number with an arbitrary number of decimals?
02:07 didi: Hum. I guess I can use `real->decimal-string' and pass the string to `printf'.
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02:43 Shambles_: didi: Is there a reason to use printf rather than say, display?
02:44 didi: Shambles_: Seems easier to compose outputs.
02:45 Shambles_: didi: I suppose so.  Maybe look at fmt, if you want fancy formatting.
02:45 didi: Shambles_: Nice. Thank you.
02:46 didi: Hum, the docs return nothing.
02:46 Shambles_: didi: http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=fmt.plt&owner=ashinn
02:46 didi: Shambles_: Ah...
02:46 Shambles_: didi: documentation: http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt
02:48 djcoin: Hi all ! Would racket be mature/relevant for web development ?
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02:50 djcoin: As "web development" is made also of a bunch of diverse techno ; it seems racket, its extensibility may be a great choice
02:52 Shambles_: djcoin: I can't judge how it compares to all the framework stuff that's popular out there, but it can apparently be used from both SCGI (I think neilv was working on that), or its own web server, and it's not that difficult to get working.  There's two tutorials that come with Racket that use it.
02:52 djcoin: I wonder about library orbiting around though
02:52 didi: There is a great tutorial for web programming in the docs.
02:52 neilv: use the tutorial
02:52 Shambles_: Two tutorials.  The 'system programming' one is also web related.
02:53 djcoin: Yeah, I must check it out - I only checked the part "writing your web server" :)
02:53 didi: Speaking of docs, `raco docs' is absolutely wonderful.
02:54 Shambles_: Is there a tooltip class somewhere in the GUI stuff?  I dredged up tooltip-frame% but it seems to only be present in DrRacket and MrEd Designer, rather than something reusable.
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03:19 djcoin: Are all the builtins optimized (typed as in typed racket) ?
03:21 Shambles_: djcoin: I don't think most of Racket is built in Typed Racket, no.  Some features (e.g. classes) aren't supported in Typed Racket, and, for example, the GUI library is built atop classes.
03:21 djcoin: Ho all right
03:21 djcoin: Thanks Shambles_
03:22 Shambles_: djcoin: I'm also not sure there's a clear distinction as to what is built in.  Everything is built on top of the kernel, and someone said earlier that it had over 1000 procedures.  Some of it is wrapped C libraries.  A lot of it is written in Racket itself.  You wouldn't be able to tell what's built in by just looking at where it's called, or most of the documentation, for sure.
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03:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/iSHs4w
03:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] improve implicit-begin syntax-error reporting - Matthew Flatt
03:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] improve `for' body syntax-error reporting - Matthew Flatt
03:27 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] avoid some compiler warnings - Matthew Flatt
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03:50 ravi: hello, can anyone tell me what i am doing wrong pls: http://pastebin.com/s5HJaYzF
03:51 ravi: i get "reference to an identifier before its definition: b"
03:51 ravi: i am creating a binding and then creating a procedure just below it that will operate on that binding
03:53 neilv: ravi: look at the documentation for let, let*, and letrec
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03:54 neilv: also, you want (b) rather than ()b
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05:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/FWfiBg
05:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bug in find-scroll-step in the implementation of Parcheesi's - Robby Findler
05:25 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] disable the preferences menu in paint-by-numbers (since it does nothing) - Robby Findler
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09:50 neilv: anyone know if any racket-lang.org server is having trouble?
09:50 ianjneu: I can access it.
09:50 ianjneu: But I'm in the same building as the server.
09:51 ianjneu: neilv: I like your software disclaimer btw
09:51 neilv: planet.racket-lang.org was having unresponsive burps earlier. and i haven't yet gotten a copy of an email list message i sent earlier (although i see it in the archive, and someone emailed me about it)
09:51 neilv: ianjneu: thanks
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10:34 eli: gabot: slap everyone
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11:07 danking: ianjneu: iOS is constantly informing me that advisor is wrong and, damn it, I think adviser looks silly.
11:08 danking: s/and,/but,/
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14:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/CGswJw
14:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added 'boolean' to the grammars for the *SLs, fixing an emailed bug report from Klause Ostermann. -- To avoid the 'true, '(true) etc issue I ommitted boolean from the [quasi]quoted grammar, which makes the current behavior kind of correct. - Matthias Felleisen
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15:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/ANdAYA
15:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Show the host we're copying content to. - Eli Barzilay
15:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Improve the documentation search code. - Eli Barzilay
15:47 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Further improvements to the documentation search. - Eli Barzilay
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15:49 Cryovat: Go eli :D
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16:07 eli: Cryovat: :)
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16:55 Shambles_: If anybody knows the GUI library, and it supports the following, I'd appreciate someone pointing me at the right documentation.  I don't see anything on tooltips, spinners (a.k.a. spinbox), MDI (windows inside a parent window), or window docking.  With help from here I seem to have figured most of the rest out.
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16:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/RJtUwQ
16:59 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] clean up example code - Robby Findler
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17:04 asumu: Shambles_: I believe gauge% is a spinner. I don't think MDI or window docking are supported natively.
17:04 asumu: (probably because it's harder to abstract it over the underlying GUI toolkits)
17:05 asumu: IIRC you can do tooltips but I don't recall off the top of my head. Though controls don't use the underlying toolkit tooltips.
17:06 asumu: (at some point I worked on doing FFI for that so I may revive that at some point)
17:06 (quit) ravi: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
17:06 Shambles_: asumu: gauge seems to be what most people would call a progress bar.  I found that earlier looking for that.  A spinner is like a combobox but instead of choosing items from a list by pressing a down arrow it has a up and down arrow and lets you step a integer or float up by some amount for each click.
17:07 adu: interesting, there's no build-bytes
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17:09 Shambles_: asumu: I was looking for something that looks like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tabstop-spinner-gedit.png
17:11 Shambles_: asumu: I spent some time trying to answer this for myself.  Not just searching the documentation, but the web, and source.  DrRacket seems to roll its own tooltip, as does MrEd Designer.  I wasn't sure if that was because they didn't exist, or if the code dated from when they didn't, but searching the documentation hasn't helped.
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17:11 Shambles_: asumu: I didn't trust my search though, since a lot of widgets aren't called what most toolkits call them.  It's possible a tooltip is called something like "floating-informative-message%" and I'd never find it searching that way.
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17:12 Cryovat: Are you using Racket on Windows or Linux?
17:13 Shambles_: Cryovat: I'm on Windows right now.  I expect to be able to run my code on both though, since I'm rather attached to Unix.
17:14 asumu: Shambles_: Isn't a gauge% exactly that?
17:14 asumu: (let me actually run it in DrRacket to see...)
17:14 Shambles_: asumu: From the documentation it appears to be a progress bar.  I guess I'll try actually making one to have a look.
17:15 asumu: Oh, you're right.
17:16 asumu: I bet there's no reason that couldn't be offered since I think all three platforms have spinners.
17:16 asumu: It's just that nobody has done the FFI level work for it.
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17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/C7PVjw
17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Unbox exp on complex numbers. - Vincent St-Amour
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17:18 asumu: When I have some time I may take a look into a slider%.
17:18 Shambles_: There's a slider already.
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17:18 jorick: Is there a way to find out how big a certain thing is? Like... how many bytes does '(1 two "three") take up?
17:19 asumu: Err, I meant spinner.
17:19 Cryovat: There's something a bit iffy about the GUI toolkit on Windows
17:20 Shambles_: asumu: That'd be nice.  The tooltips would be nice too, since they are apparently non-trivial.  I fished the code to implement them out of MrEd Designer and DrRacket.  There have been bugs in both (e.g. tooltip not reliably disappearing when the mouse moves away).
17:20 Cryovat: Unless you do a lot of tweaking of padding and sizes, things look a bit squashed
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17:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Bz_Euw
17:20 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] A bunch of typo fixes from Richard Cleis. - Eli Barzilay
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17:21 Shambles_: jorick: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/bytestrings.html?q=length#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._bytes-length%29%29
17:21 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/d4cqnck
17:22 Shambles_: asumu: Thanks for all your help over the last several weeks.
17:24 asumu: IIRC, I had an implementation of tooltips for most Racket controls, but some were tricky because they're actually compound controls. i.e., they are multiple base toolkit-level widgets combined.
17:24 asumu: So it wasn't obvious to me how the tooltip should work.
17:24 asumu: And I never tested the Mac or Win versions of that patch since I didn't have machines to easily test it on.
17:25 Shambles_: asumu: I thought the way the DrRacket one was designed seemed sensible.  It's a mixin, so you can basically 'attach' a tooltip to whatever you want.  Unfortunately DrRacket only seems to actually use it for the display in the lower right (the little man and colored circle).  It can be handy when you're not sure exactly what something is for, but my favorite use is to explain *why* something is disabled.
17:27 asumu: Shambles_: which mixin is that again?
17:28 Shambles_: asumu: This is the DrRacket one which is a mixin: http://pre.racket-lang.org/racket/collects/drracket/private/tooltip.rkt
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17:28 Shambles_: asumu: This is the MrEd Designer version: http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/orseau/mred-designer.plt/3/6/tooltip.ss
17:28 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/89qvr27
17:28 asumu: Ah right, yeah. Used for the autocomplete and stuff IIRC.
17:29 Shambles_: MrEd Designer seems to use them rather heavily, which is fine by me.  I like documentation. :P
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17:29 Cryovat: I gave the MrEd designer a go, but wasn't a fan
17:30 Shambles_: I couldn't find any other implementations.
17:30 Cryovat: Doing things by hand is a bit fiddly, but feels like it gives better control
17:30 asumu: Yeah, I'll look into reviving that patch. Since using the underlying toolkit tooltip support might make sense for efficiency.
17:31 Shambles_: Cryovat: Sometimes (e.g. Qt Designer) gui builders produce code that's pretty usable without touching it. Other times they're mostly good for getting the numbers figured out for what you want to code by hand.  Personally I think even if it's only good for the latter, such tools are invaluable.
17:31 Cryovat: That's very true
17:31 asumu: I think the Qt approach with QML is neat too.
17:32 asumu: I've thought it'd be easier to do something like that in Racket because of its language-building tools.
17:33 Shambles_: I really like Qt, at least as a GUI toolkit.  I haven't been interested in all the other stuff that got attached, but maybe it's because I don't work in C++ much.  There's really nice tools for using Qt in Python though.
17:33 Shambles_: And it's generally easy to find anything in Qt, and it has copious screenshots and example code.
17:34 Cryovat: I'm a big fan of XAML (Microsoft's QML if you're not familiar with it)
17:34 Cryovat: But the downside is that it's reliant on model classes with all sorts of events
17:34 asumu: I wish it was easy to bind Qt in Racket.
17:34 Cryovat: That seems a bit hard to combine with a functional program design
17:35 asumu: Since that'd be an easy way to reduce the maintenance burden of three GUI backends.
17:35 asumu: (but binding to Qt is notoriously hard)
17:35 Cryovat: What about GTK?
17:35 Shambles_: I've never had to see that end of it, but I love the Python tools for Qt.
17:36 Cryovat: It looks a bit weird on Windows and OSX, but the C base should be pretty easy to interop with
17:36 asumu: Cryovat: Racket already uses GTK on Linux.
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17:37 Cryovat: Have you considered it on other platforms?
17:37 Cryovat: I guess the disadvantage to it is that it blows up the distribution file size
17:37 asumu: There're already backends for Mac and Windows which are more native than GTK on those platforms.
17:37 Shambles_: I think there's Racket bindings for GTK actually.  Personally I don't like GTK much (GTK apps want to spawn a billion little windows for everything... like Mac apps do).  I didn't have as much luck with the tools and documentation either.
17:37 asumu: (and GTK on Mac would probably look much uglier)
17:41 Shambles_: Maybe what I saw was just the stuff Racket already uses.  I can't seem to find it as a separate addon now.
17:43 Shambles_: Reading the blog on the Racket GUI backend rewrite is entertaining... seeing how much the code was reduced.
17:45 didi: Racket's GUI library is very nice. I like it very much. Specially the interactivity during development. The only thing missing is that it is somewhat limited by the number of widgets available.
17:48 Shambles_: didi: I went through the Qt widgets, and other than weird stuff most apps don't need (calendar widget, radio dial (do not like this one myself)) the only things I found missing were toolbar, status bar, tooltip, and spinner, as far as widgets are concerned.  Qt also has MDI and window docking support which is super nice if you /don't/ like the billion windows approach, and those aren't in Racket.
17:49 didi: Shambles_: I miss the spinner.
17:49 Shambles_: didi: The main issue is most things aren't called what you'd expect, or they're 'built into' other things.  For example splitters are built into panels, and scrollbars are built into editor-canvases (which get inherited a bunch).  So it's hard to find things (who honestly would look for a grid or table widget as "list-box%"?), but they're in there.  Screenshots would *greatly* help the docs.
17:50 Cryovat: Shambles_: Maybe a kitchen sink demo app?
17:51 didi: Shambles_: devhelp's GTK section has a page with all the widgets. I agree that it helps.
17:51 asumu: We could definitely do that on the docs for widgets.
17:52 Shambles_: Cryovat: Perhaps, or a "everywhere else speak to Racket speak" for GUI library documentation.  I have a big messy wad of notes that include basically everything I couldn't figure out myself from documentation.  Assuming it doesn't make me look too much like a moron, I might put it up on PLaneT with a little demo code as tutorials.  I was told that wouldn't be objectionable.
17:52 Cryovat: A thesaurus like that sounds hard to maintain
17:52 Cryovat: Like
17:52 Cryovat: I'm used to .NET, I tried GTK# once and couldn't find anything
17:52 asumu: I like the screenshot idea since then we don't need to thesaurus.
17:52 asumu: The pictures will make it obvious.
17:53 didi: Yes.
17:53 didi: it's very handy.
17:53 Cryovat: So if there was a thesaurus thing, it'd need to have all the major toolkits in it, and that'd be a pain
17:53 asumu: I'll look into adding that for the next release.
17:53 jorick: is there a way to get the current file / line / position of the calling code? i'm already using define-syntax-rule, but i'd like to add more debug information
17:53 didi: Here, the GTK web version: http://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/ch03.html
17:54 Shambles_: The screenshot thing is the best immediate solution.  Basically each widget or container-like-thing needs a picture of it (in its various configurations, e.g. since list-box can look really different) /at the top/ of the documentation for each.  The reason being I don't want to have to read a whole bunch just to realize "this isn't what I was looking for".
17:54 Shambles_: jorick: syntax objects include things like their origin file and line of code.
17:55 Shambles_: jorick: You might want to use syntax-parse if you want good automatic error messages, since that's one of its primary reasons for existing.
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17:55 Cryovat: Are the Racket controls consistant across platforms?
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17:55 Cryovat: If not, it might be nice with a side-by-side of Windows, Linux and Mac
17:55 jorick: ok i'll check that out
17:55 Cryovat: I could help out there to cover Windows
17:56 Shambles_: Cryovat: From what I've seen they look and behave the same.  It'd actually be kinda bad if they didn't at least behave the same.
17:56 didi: Cryovat: It would be nice, but not that important I think. GTK, for example, can be themed, so the widgets you see are not necessarily the ones your OS uses.
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17:58 Cryovat: That's true
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17:59 Shambles_: I don't find the theming interesting or confusing either.  A slider aught to act the same no matter what the OS is.  It doesn't matter to me if it looks like a bead of water being rubbed along a groove, or like the (nice, to me) old boxy NeXTStep widgets.  I could figure out if a widget did what I wanted from a picture of a foreign OS or different theme.
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18:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/bHtZ0w
18:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/control: add aliases and update %/fcontrol - Asumu Takikawa
18:30 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix TR optimizer test - Asumu Takikawa
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19:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/BKjlaw
19:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Update history for recent control additions - Asumu Takikawa
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22:03 asumu: Finally took a look at the documentation for the images/flomap library. It's great.
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22:06 offby1: sounds like something I'd see advertised on "Sixty Minutes"
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22:13 jonrafkind: would be cool if flomaps used opengl operations
22:13 jonrafkind: probably could speed them up
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