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09:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/jGgeQA
09:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] All of `overridden-collects/teachpack' should not be tested. - Eli Barzilay
09:12 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Do the xref test only if "doc/reference/out.sxref" exists/ - Eli Barzilay
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11:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/fF-gZw
11:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] start adding struct/dc contracts - Robby Findler
11:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust the opter protocol so that opters can say either: "yes this is - Robby Findler
11:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] finish up struct/dc - Robby Findler
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16:14 jonrafkind: the sandbox environment uses typed racket?
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16:21 jonrafkind: offby1, are you familiar with the sandbox api?
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16:31 Cryovat: jeapostrophe: You about?
16:33 jonrafkind: ok i finally got this thing to work
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17:09 jeapostrophe: Cryovat: about
17:11 Cryovat: Hey
17:11 Cryovat: Was just wondering, since you seem to have done some game-relalted hackery
17:11 Cryovat: *related
17:12 Cryovat: I ran into some trouble trying to decide how to  keep track of state in my toy game project
17:12 Cryovat: Was hoping you might know of some good resources there
17:12 Cryovat: I know how to do it in the OO "way", but was hoping for something that meshes a bit better with the functional paradigm
17:12 jeapostrophe: When you say, keep track of state, you mean, like where the mobs, players, etc are and what their internal logic, etc?
17:13 Cryovat: Yeah
17:14 jeapostrophe: If you look at get-bonus, I mostly just use pretty plain structures, for example: https://github.com/get-bonus/get-bonus/blob/master/games/maze/maze.rkt
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17:15 Cryovat: Do you return a new world representation from each update?
17:15 jeapostrophe: Ya
17:15 jeapostrophe: I didn't love that though because of some of the threading of state
17:15 jeapostrophe: So I wanted to do something more OO like, but the Racket class system can't do functional updates correctly
17:15 jeapostrophe: So I implemented a prototype system that did that:
17:15 jeapostrophe: https://github.com/jeapostrophe/exp/blob/master/foo/test.rkt
17:16 jeapostrophe: But I haven't yet used it in a game
17:16 Cryovat: Ah, I see
17:16 Cryovat: I picked up this link from Stack Overflow, which I'm reading now: http://conal.net/papers/icfp97/icfp97.pdf
17:17 jeapostrophe: But, my new idea is to represent the actors as "domain-specific processes" and make their state implicit in their environment. here's an example of that: https://github.com/jeapostrophe/exp/blob/master/kernel.rkt
17:17 Cryovat: It's slightly hard to digest right before midnight, but pretty interesting
17:18 jeapostrophe: Ya, Racket has FRP like that; here's tetris: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/frtime/demos/tetris.rkt
17:18 jeapostrophe: One of the problems (imho) with that is that it has you write the "integral" version of the function whereas we often (and in particular with games) want to think in the "derivative" style
17:18 jeapostrophe: i.e. we want to think about discrete changes rather than the whole final value
17:19 jeapostrophe: for example, in tetris, the board is a giant letrec
17:19 Cryovat: Yeah, it also feels like it could quickly become a pain when dealing with interaction between a lot of objecs
17:19 Cryovat: *objects
17:20 Cryovat: Tiles, koopas, one-up mushrooms, and so on
17:21 jeapostrophe: Here's another struct based system that got a little messy: https://github.com/jeapostrophe/bulletml/blob/master/engine.ss
17:21 jeapostrophe: I hope to find something really beautiful and write about it as part of get-bonus, but for now I mostly have a bunch of experiments
17:21 Cryovat: Interesting how you've played with BulletML, I started on a .NET implementation that died in its infacy
17:22 jeapostrophe: I'm really into shmups, so I wanted to look at it
17:22 Cryovat: A shmup is my current goal :)
17:23 Cryovat: I cloned get-bonus and tried to get it working btw
17:23 Cryovat: The Cocoa dependency makes that a bit tricky on Windows :/
17:23 jeapostrophe: It only runs on OS X, now
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17:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 9 new commits to master: http://git.io/yFUtAg
17:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] macro-debugger: updates for submodules - Ryan Culpepper
17:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add srfi links - Ryan Culpepper
17:23 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] macro-debugger: more submod fixes, removed unused code & exports - Ryan Culpepper
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17:23 jeapostrophe: Ya. I have since switched to Linux but haven't update it yet
17:24 jeapostrophe: If you turn off the joysticks and music, it would be fine though
17:28 Cryovat: I have a soft spot for bullet hell, that's how I got started on the whole worrying-about-architecture thing in the first place ;)
17:35 jeapostrophe: Cryovat: Treasure or CAVE?
17:38 Cryovat: I like both, but if I have to chose, CAVE
17:38 Cryovat: I imported a Japanese Xbox to be able to play their games
17:40 jeapostrophe: Right now I only have the region-free ones (Mushi, Muchi&Pink, ESP2, DS) but DoDon and Ketsui sound good
17:40 Cryovat: DoDon is a lot of fun
17:40 jeapostrophe: I'm working on 1CC-ing Mushi. That's probably my favourite game of theirs
17:40 jeapostrophe: I have a complete Dot Eater run of Ikaruga
17:41 jeapostrophe: And a few 1CCs of DS (once in an Akihabara arcade) :P
17:41 Cryovat: Wow
17:41 Cryovat: I'm nowhere near that
17:41 Cryovat: I'm a big fan of the genre, but at the same I'm terrible at them
17:41 Cryovat: Hoping to do a 1CC of Mushi someday
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17:42 Cryovat: I like it for its straightness
17:42 jeapostrophe: https://www.youtube.com/user/jeapostrophe/videos
17:42 Cryovat: The scoring system in ESP2 was a headache
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17:43 jeapostrophe: Ya they'll all pretty rad. Mushi has amazing flow. ESP2 is insane with the amount of gold you can get. I don't really like Muchi or Pink Sweets though.
17:44 Cryovat: Watching your run of the  final chapter
17:44 Cryovat: Ikaruga has to be one of my favorite soundtracks
17:44 Cryovat: Haven't tried Muchi or Pink Sweets
17:45 Cryovat: Biggest disappointment for me was Deathsmiles 2
17:45 Cryovat: Just couldn't get into it at all
17:45 jeapostrophe: I agree. It's really tight and unique. The OST for Radiant Silvergun is okay but very samey
17:46 jeapostrophe: My 2nd favourite Treasure game in Sin & Punishment 2 (got an Easy & Normal 1CC, working on Hard) and its sound is amaaaaazing
17:48 Cryovat: Hmm, I think this is one of the first compelling reasons I've seen for getting a Wii :o
17:49 jeapostrophe: If you only played S&P2, NSMBWii, and Muramasa, it would be worth it, IMHO
17:50 Cryovat: I'm guessing they retail for cheap by now
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18:06 asumu: jeapostrophe: what did you mean re: functional updates and racket/class? Would this% have solved your issue?
18:09 jeapostrophe: asumu: this% is close but not entirely because it is so easy to get hidden state that isn't available in the constructor
18:09 asumu: Ah, I see. Fair enough.
18:10 jeapostrophe: especially because the class system automatically makes initializer fields public (iiuc) it's an annoyance
18:10 jeapostrophe: basically functional updates with subclassing and private fields is really tricky
18:10 asumu: Well, init-field will. You need to write your own macro for an init-private.
18:10 asumu: (which is actually a puzzling omission)
18:10 jeapostrophe: which would prevent a subclass from functionally updating, keeping that field the same
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18:11 jeapostrophe: (because it couldn't read it to find out its value)
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18:12 jeapostrophe: this% is also a problem because you don't know what other arguments to provide. i guess you could make a protocol where you called 'copy' and gave it a list of changes or something so the dispatch would start at the bottom?
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18:13 jeapostrophe: i don't know if there really is a right way to do it manually; it seems like the class system should provide it
18:13 jeapostrophe: with prototype objects, though, it's pretty obvious how to do it in user land if the dispatch table is functional
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23:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yYoUnQ
23:10 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/flonum: add `flexpt' - Matthew Flatt
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23:17 eli: jonrafkind: Did you see if history & completions work?
23:17 jonrafkind: history works
23:17 jonrafkind: i think completion works.. just a sec
23:17 jonrafkind: works
23:17 eli: OK.
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23:44 ozzloy: i'm writing some udp stuff.  here's a robot side which does sending http://pastebin.com/MEAfa5uZ and a driver-station side which receives http://pastebin.com/DbaYhuF9 .  is there a way to test this when i don't have connection to a router?
23:44 ozzloy: also is this good form, or is there a better way to do it?
23:45 jonrafkind: can't you just use localhost
23:45 ozzloy: this is my first time with udp
23:45 ozzloy: i'm trying to do broadcast
23:45 jonrafkind: oh i see broadcast
23:45 ozzloy: which i thought would also work
23:45 jonrafkind: uhhhhhhhh well i guess in theory you can make a routing thing on localhost that knows how to deal with broadcast
23:46 jonrafkind: sounds like some complicated network stuff though
23:46 ozzloy: dang
23:46 ozzloy: maybe i'll just add a --no-network flag to the testing module
23:47 jonrafkind: my guess is you would create a virtual topology bridge eth0 to it, then somehow set up iptables on the virtual device
23:47 ozzloy: i'm writing a replacement for a cRIO communications app that blows
23:47 jonrafkind: maybe you can test in a VM, that has a virtual network device
23:47 jonrafkind: you should be able to communicate between the VM and your host
23:47 ozzloy: i'm not sure how to do that short of using google and some of those words and "tutorial"
23:48 ozzloy: which might be what i end up doing
23:48 ozzloy: oh
23:48 ozzloy: vm, may work!
23:48 ozzloy: nice idea
23:48 jonrafkind: probably still requires some fiddling, but hopefully less
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