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01:08 neilv: layout problem with generated scribble defproc. http://imgur.com/FmdQr
01:15 neilv: the generated defproc syntax is being generated from 3 different hunks of source syntax.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/129242
01:16 neilv: i wonder whether scribble is getting confused by source position info on the syntax
01:17 neilv: help me, eli wan kenobi, you're my only hope
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01:47 jonrafkind: where does the user specific racket stuff go in osx, like in linux its ~/.racket
01:52 neilv: no wonder the 5.3 release is being skipped. eli has taken up sleeping. productivity plummets.
01:53 jonrafkind: we should skip 5.x and go straight to 14 to beat firefox
01:54 jonrafkind: the funny thing is we are skipping 5.3 to goto 5.4 because the internal version number was already bumped to 5.3.0.1 or whatever
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08:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FQ_R1Q
08:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix a problem with the "self" module path index - Matthew Flatt
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14:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/dLLLZA
14:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add pointers to the Guide in Reference docs. - Asumu Takikawa
14:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Update Getting Started page. - Asumu Takikawa
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15:17 tedr56: Hi all
15:17 samth: hi
15:17 tedr56: Is someone familiar with clements planet sxpath pard
15:17 tedr56: parsing*
15:18 tedr56: ?
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15:20 tedr56: I can't manage to filter sxml by attribute value. Anyone know the syntax?
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15:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/q9rvuA
15:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix REPL hyperlink in Getting Started. - Asumu Takikawa
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15:28 ssbr: OK, that's odd. (append x) == x, no matter what x is.
15:28 ssbr: So it can be used as the identity function.
15:28 ssbr: My students are evil...
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15:32 Cryovat: ssbr: Are they using the language against you? :)
15:32 ssbr: Cryovat: I don't know. I don't understand why they'd just randomly put (append x) everywhere
15:33 ssbr: (if (> x y) (append x) (append y))
15:33 ssbr: what are they learning from this
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15:33 ssbr: what is the prof _teaching_ these people D:
15:33 Cryovat: Haha
15:33 Cryovat: From my days as a ta
15:34 Cryovat: It's always a bit hard to distinguish trolling from cluelessness ;)
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16:16 asumu: ssbr: That just seems like cargo cult programming.
16:16 asumu: "Oh my professor used append... so let's use that"
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16:22 ssbr: asumu: Hee. Maybe.
16:22 ssbr: I'm more tempted to think that they forgot to remove append, or thought it was doing something
16:22 ssbr: in particular they used append in a lambda in a map
16:22 jonrafkind: "oh my professor uses the design recipie. well f that!"
16:23 ssbr: something like (map (lambda (a) (if (predicate? a) (append 1) (append 0)))
16:24 stamourv: ssbr: With an imperative mindset, that may look like trying to imperatively add 1 or 0 to the list.
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16:25 stamourv: If you forget that `map' actually does build the list. If you think that `map' is really `for-each', that almost maybe kind of makes sense.
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16:31 ssbr: stamourv: exactly
16:31 FreeFull: map takes a function and a list, and applies the function to each member of the list. That's all you need to know
16:32 ssbr: Students this semester had a really hard time with HOFs
16:32 ssbr: I was really weirded out when they asked questions like, "is drop-right a higher order function?"
16:32 ssbr: (although that's just definitions)
16:34 stamourv: FreeFull: That's closer to `for-each'. `map' returns a list of the results. That's a key difference.
16:35 FreeFull: stamourv: You feed it a list and you get a list
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16:35 FreeFull looks up what for-each does again
16:36 stamourv: ssbr: When introducing higher-order functions (with the abstraction recipe), students usually ask me: "Why didn't you show me this two weeks ago? I could really have used that for $HOMEWORK."
16:36 stamourv: They usually understand the concept pretty well.
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16:37 FreeFull: Ah, the result is ignored
16:37 stamourv: As for whether a function is higher-order or not, you just write the contract down, and you can tell right away.
16:38 ssbr: stamourv: maybe our prof isn't very good :(
16:40 stamourv: Are you using HTDP?
16:40 stamourv: The way things are set up, higher-order functions are just a natural consequence of the abstraction recipe.
16:41 ssbr: no textbook, just lectures and lecture notes
16:41 ssbr: the prof is familiar with HTDP though
16:43 stamourv: ssbr: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/htdp2e-part3.html
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16:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/MtHSPQ
16:48 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix mistake in memf documentation, Closes PR 12745 - Matthias Felleisen
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18:12 jonrafkind: what would I use in redex to view how a metafunction evaluates/
18:12 jonrafkind: ?
18:12 jonrafkind: traces wants a reduction relation but I don't have one because im just using metafunctions
18:12 jonrafkind: should i make a dummy reduction relation that does nothing?
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18:16 Cryovat blinks
18:16 Cryovat: I have so much  to learn :(
18:18 jonrafkind: well fwiw that worked (a dummy reduction relation, btw it needed at least one rule so i put in some nonsense)
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18:27 jrslepak_neu: if you wrap a metafunction in a reduction relation, wouldn't traces just show you the input and output for each application of the metafunction?
18:28 jonrafkind: isn't that what traces is supposed to do
18:28 jrslepak_neu: yeah, but you could just call the metafunction
18:28 jrslepak_neu: that will show you its output too
18:29 jonrafkind: like a normal function? (foo (term x)) ?
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18:29 jrslepak_neu: it goes inside the term'd part
18:29 jonrafkind: i thought only the redex machinery understood how to apply metafunctions
18:29 jrslepak_neu: (term (metafoo metaparam1 metaparam2))
18:30 jonrafkind: ok you're right
18:30 jonrafkind: it does work
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18:31 jonrafkind: now I can't get the metafunction to accept any arguments, the contract is x1 : xterm -> xterm, and I have one clause [(x1 x) x]
18:31 jonrafkind: but it says it can't find a matching clause
18:33 jrslepak_neu: try using redex-match and breaking your argument down
18:34 jrslepak_neu: (how have you defined x?)
18:34 jonrafkind: x is just a variable in the clause
18:34 jonrafkind: afaik it should have the type of the argument in the signature
18:35 jonrafkind: ahhh thats not true
18:35 jrslepak_neu: isn't the clause supposed to take a pattern?
18:35 jonrafkind: it has to be a term
18:35 jonrafkind: blah, i was looking at my old redex code and got confused
18:36 jonrafkind: jrslepak_neu, btw who are you? a new grad student?
18:36 jrslepak_neu: yes
18:36 jonrafkind: what are you working on
18:37 jrslepak_neu: working with Olin, actually
18:37 jonrafkind: ah
18:37 jrslepak_neu: looking into array-oriented languages (APL family)
18:38 jonrafkind: i cant say i know much about them..
18:39 jrslepak_neu: the general idea is to avoid writing explicit loops by having functions automatically handle looping over the arrays you pass them
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19:02 em: A problem -- When I made my hashes using make-hash they were all mutable. Good. But then I used write-to-file and they got put in the file as immutable ones.
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19:02 offby1: hm
19:02 em: when you write them to file they are just #hash() and when you read that back then drracket things it was immutable and your program doesn't work.
19:02 offby1: hm hm hm
19:03 offby1: I suspect you're gonna have to mutable-ify them after reading.
19:03 jonrafkind: that sounds like a bug to me
19:03 jonrafkind: can you file one
19:03 em: I did that with the master hash using hash-copy
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19:03 em: but the problem is that my master hash is a hash of hashes.
19:04 em: when i read back the master hash i can turn it into a mutable one by making a hash-copy but all the hashes inside of it are still immutable so my program doesn't work.
19:04 em: Everything worked BEFORE writing to file, if you get me.
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19:05 tauntaun: Can an eof-object be explicitly written to a port?
19:05 em: I used (make-hash ) to make all the hashes. So they were all originally mutable. And as long as I don't close drracket they all worked correctly. But I saved everything to a text file, adn when I read it ack now it thinks they are all immutable.
19:05 offby1: em: I get you.  Trying it out
19:06 tauntaun: Along similar lines, can an eof-object be explicitly constructed (using racket/base)?
19:06 offby1: tauntaun: one would hope not.
19:06 tauntaun: offyb1: why?
19:07 jonrafkind: rudybot: (eof-object? eof)
19:07 rudybot: jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready
19:07 rudybot: jonrafkind: ; Value: #t
19:07 tauntaun: jonrafkind: thank you.
19:08 em: offby1, jonrafkind  I used (write-to-file master "filename.txt" #:exists? 'replace) to save it. and then (file->value "filename.txt") to read it.
19:08 offby1: em: it's easy enough to repro.  I suspect you should a) write the bug report that jonrafkind suggested; and b) write a (not-terribly-difficult) function that restores mutability to your hash-of-hashes.  It'll be fun!
19:09 em: offby1: yeah you are saying basically I need to recursively travel through the hash of hashes to make hash copies of each of the things that are hashes and ignore the stuff that isn't hashes?
19:09 jonrafkind: reproduce it as (write (make-hash)) should not be the same as (write (hash))
19:09 em: jonrafkind: I bet it will.
19:10 jonrafkind: i mean it does now, thats the simplified test case
19:10 jonrafkind: instead of using write-to-file yadda yadda
19:10 em: so you think this is a bug?
19:10 em: I didn't see in the reference what a mutable hash is supposed to look like when written.
19:11 jonrafkind: im not sure but im leaning towards a bug
19:11 jonrafkind: i dont really understand all the details of the printer
19:11 offby1: em: here's half the bug report for you: https://gist.github.com/2572252
19:13 em: offby1: what is a thunk?
19:15 offby1: "thunk" is just an alternate way to spell "lambda ()"
19:15 em: Is there any way to add keys to an immutable hash?
19:15 offby1: no.
19:15 offby1: by definition.
19:15 em: im not sure i even see why immutable hashes exist. If you can not hadd stuff to them
19:15 offby1: functional programming!
19:15 offby1: rudybot: (define (fix-up-hashes thing) (cond ((hash? thing) (apply make-immutable-hash (hash-map thing (lambda (k v) (cons k (fix-up-hashes v)))))) (else thing)))
19:15 rudybot: *offby1: your r5rs sandbox is ready
19:15 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
19:15 offby1: hm, I prefer racket
19:15 offby1: rudybot: init racket
19:15 rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready
19:15 offby1: rudybot: (define (fix-up-hashes thing) (cond ((hash? thing) (apply make-immutable-hash (hash-map thing (lambda (k v) (cons k (fix-up-hashes v)))))) (else thing)))
19:15 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
19:15 offby1: rudybot: (define mh (make-hash `((one . 1) (deep . ,(make-hash '((three . 3)))))))
19:15 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
19:16 offby1: a deeply-nested mutable hash
19:16 offby1: rudybot: (define wat (read (open-input-string (with-output-to-string (thunk (write mh))))))
19:16 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
19:16 offby1: rudybot: (immutable? mh)
19:16 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #f
19:16 offby1: rudybot: (immutable? wat)
19:16 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #t
19:16 offby1: so there's the bug.
19:16 offby1: rudybot: (fix-up-hashes wat)
19:16 rudybot: *offby1: error: make-immutable-hash: expects argument of type <list of pairs>; given: '(three . 3)
19:16 offby1: oops
19:16 offby1: thought that worked.
19:17 em: offby1: my master hash is a hash of hashes but it also has some other stuff in it like lists and strings, and vectors.
19:17 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
19:18 offby1: just get rid of the "apply".
19:18 offby1: em: that's fine.
19:20 offby1: take another look at https://gist.github.com/2572252
19:20 em: i think this might be a pretty serious bug if it is a bug.
19:20 offby1: it should work
19:21 em: i not qualified to write this bug and I have no time to do it.
19:21 offby1: tsk tsk tsk
19:41 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org -- logs at http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs/
19:41 (names) -: gabot ssbr_ jrslepak maahes dyoo bremner_ Cryovat pmatey_ rotty_ yoklov kandinski danking mario-goulart gf3 tauntaun dlind basepi bitonic ivan` ozzloy jrslepak_neu dsp_ jamessan samth eMBee rajathshetty hyko cipher aidy rudybot alkabetz SeanTAllen bill_h Nisstyre otterdam bremner asumu chandler dsantiago sharkbird em wtetzner Skola cataska acarrico SHODAN mithos28 friscosam sethalves abbe Lunaqus ivan\ Shambles_ masm Shviller eli FreeFull noam Kaylin aalix
19:41 (names) -: antithesis dented42 ssbr jschuster karswell 16SAA4ITF stamourv` ASau` sajith chemuduguntar DGASAU stchang tewk ChibaPet DraX errstr cky offby1 @ChanServ rapacity
19:42 ssbr: my new approach to applying test cases against arbitrary student-submitted files: (define-syntax (require-stdin syntax-object) (datum->syntax syntax-object `(require ,(read))))
19:42 (quit) aalix: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
19:42 (quit) ssbr: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
19:43 tauntaun: (back)
19:44 offby1: (front)
19:44 tauntaun: offby1: I don't understand how readability relates to my question (?)
19:44 offby1: tauntaun: how are you gonna get the eof-object onto the port in the first place?
19:44 offby1: ports contain characters.
19:44 offby1: not arbitrary scheme values.
19:45 offby1: you _can_ write _some_ values to a port, using "write".  But eof isn't one of those values.
19:45 tauntaun: offby1: then why does this work?: (display eof)
19:45 offby1: rudybot: (write eof)
19:45 rudybot: *offby1: ; stdout: "#<eof>"
19:45 (join) dsp__
19:45 tauntaun: rudybot: (write eof)
19:45 rudybot: tauntaun: your sandbox is ready
19:45 rudybot: tauntaun: ; stdout: "#<eof>"
19:45 offby1: because it generated _some_ characters, but try reading them back and you'll see what I mean.
19:45 (join) jonrafkind
19:45 tauntaun: Ah.
19:45 offby1: Or just look at https://gist.github.com/2572444 where I've done it all for you.
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19:47 FreeFull: Depending on what you want to do, you could use EOT, which is 0x04
19:47 Cryovat: Silly question, thunk is a lambda without arguments?
19:47 offby1: you can stick any bytes you want into a port.
19:47 (join) hyko-
19:47 offby1: that's the nice thing about ports.
19:47 offby1: and when you're reading, you can interpret them however you'd like.
19:48 offby1: Cryovat: exactly
19:48 offby1: rudybot: ((thunk "that's it, all right"))
19:48 rudybot: *offby1: Actually I write with-foo PROCEDURES that wrap a thunk in an UNWIND-PROTECT
19:48 offby1: rudybot: eval ((thunk "that's it, all right"))
19:48 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: "that's it, all right"
19:48 offby1: rudybot: eval ((lambda () "that's it, all right"))
19:48 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: "that's it, all right"
19:48 offby1: they probably macro-expand to the identical stuff.
19:49 FreeFull: ((lambda () (* 3 3)))
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19:49 offby1: rudybot: eval (expand '((lambda () "that's it, all right")))
19:49 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #<syntax (#%app (lambda () (quote "tha...>
19:49 offby1: rudybot: eval (expand '((thunk "that's it, all right")))
19:49 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #<syntax (#%app (lambda () (quote "tha...>
19:49 offby1 nods gravely
19:49 FreeFull: ((thunk (* 3 3)))
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19:51 offby1: I wonder if I should make rudybot automatically eval scheme code in this channel, without needing to be addressed directly
19:51 tauntaun: offby1: are you trying to get us to panic? :-)
19:51 (nick) ivan\_ -> ivan\
19:51 offby1: nope!  DON'T PANIC
19:51 offby1: rudybot: eval (syntax->datum (expand '((thunk "that's it, all right"))))
19:51 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: (#%app (lambda () (quote "that's it, all right")))
19:53 bremner: rudybot: init racket
19:53 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready
19:53 FreeFull: offby1: Until someone types some evil code, and it happens to get evaluated automatically...
19:54 bremner: rudybot: (eq? 'offby1 'sane)
19:54 rudybot: bremner: ; Value: #f
19:54 dyoo: Hmmm..
19:54 bremner: rudybot is supposed to by bombproof. Except when he isn't.
19:57 FreeFull: rudybot: (define (x) (define (y) (x))) (x)
19:57 rudybot: FreeFull: If following the earlier given rules, shouldn't that be (let [[x (foo)] [y (bar)]] code) instead?
20:03 (nick) jamessan` -> jamessan
20:04 (nick) samth -> samth_away
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20:09 offby1: FreeFull: what would "evil code" do?
20:09 FreeFull: Eat all your food
20:09 offby1: see, rudybot not only evals code, he provides commentary on code!
20:10 offby1: rudybot: (begin (define (x) (define (y) (x))) (x))
20:10 rudybot: *offby1: error: #<undefined>:1:7: begin (possibly implicit): no expression after a sequence of internal definitions in: ((define (y) (x)))
20:10 offby1: rudybot: (define (x) (define (y) (x)) (x))
20:10 rudybot: *offby1: Done.
20:10 offby1: rudybot: (x)
20:10 rudybot: *offby1: error: with-limit: out of time
20:11 FreeFull: Yeah, I missed an (x)
20:11 FreeFull: rudybot: (cdr (cdr '()))
20:11 rudybot: FreeFull: your sandbox is ready
20:11 rudybot: FreeFull: error: cdr: expects argument of type <pair>; given: '()
20:13 Kaylin: rudybot: (caar '(x))
20:13 rudybot: Kaylin: your sandbox is ready
20:13 rudybot: Kaylin: error: caar: expects argument of type <caarable value>; given: '(x)
20:14 Kaylin: why are we trying to make rudybot tell us things about lists
20:14 Kaylin: :X
20:14 rudybot: Je suis plein d'informations utiles sur toutes sortes de sujets
20:14 Kaylin: O_O
20:15 rudybot: Além disso, eu posso comer vidro, mas não me machucar
20:17 Cryovat: C'est nes pas un pipe
20:17 Cryovat got nothing
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20:20 offby1: rudybot: t8 en fr Sometimes silence is the most eloquent.
20:20 rudybot: *offby1: Parfois, le silence est le plus éloquent.
20:20 offby1: rudybot: t8 en fr STFU
20:20 rudybot: *offby1: STFU
20:20 offby1: aw
20:21 Kaylin: help, I can't find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal the animal one
20:21 jamessan: the first link on that page...
20:22 Kaylin: oh -.-
20:22 Kaylin: I was expecting it to say seal
20:27 FreeFull: "Pinnipeds (from Latin pinna, wing or fin, and ped-, foot) or fin-footed mammals are a widely distributed and diverse group of semiaquatic marine mammals comprising the families Odobenidae (the walrus), Otariidae (eared seals, including sea lions and fur seals), and Phocidae (earless seals)."
20:27 FreeFull: The problem is that you weren't specific enough
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21:06 otterdam: rudybot: (define ☃ “a happy little snowman”)
21:06 rudybot: otterdam: your sandbox is ready
21:06 rudybot: otterdam: error: #<undefined>:1:0: define: bad syntax (multiple expressions after identifier) in: (define ☃ “a happy little snowman”)
21:07 jamessan: rudybot: (define ☃ "a happy little snowman")
21:07 rudybot: jamessan: your sandbox is ready
21:07 rudybot: jamessan: Done.
21:07 otterdam: rudybot: (:(
21:07 rudybot: otterdam: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
21:07 otterdam: oops, I just wanted a regular :(
21:07 jamessan: rudybot: ☃
21:07 rudybot: jamessan: ; Value: "a happy little snowman"
21:07 otterdam: why did yours work and mine didn’t :(
21:08 jamessan: because mine didn't use unicode quotes, so it actually defined a string :)
21:08 offby1: unicode quotes being the work of the Devil, or of Microsoft
21:08 otterdam: HA - silly mac trying to be clever
21:21 (join) RacketCommitBot
21:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/OHb9ZQ
21:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add immutable constructors for color%, brush%, pen% - Asumu Takikawa
21:21 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix plot to use immutable constructors. - Asumu Takikawa
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21:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vDNTEQ
21:40 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix USE_COMPILED_STARTUP setting - Matthew Flatt
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22:36 dyoo: g'night everyone
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22:43 (part) FreeFull: "part"
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23:08 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/pGCGXg
23:08 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] racket/draw: make-immutable-{color,brush,pen} => make-{color,brush,pen} - Matthew Flatt
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