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06:30 MetaEntity: Hello
06:30 MetaEntity: I am looking for a way to use racket ffi in R6RS racket lang
06:37 bremner: MetaEntity: the obvious way would be to make seperate module with the ffi using funcs in it. I take it that doesn't work for you?
06:38 MetaEntity: how do I import function from that module to an r6rs module?
06:38 MetaEntity: ok sorry I found it in the doc
06:42 bremner: good, I was looking there too ;)
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10:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/10L4Fg
10:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] ffi/com: add support for type descriptions on values - Matthew Flatt
10:55 (part) RacketCommitBot
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11:35 flying_rhino: this is going to sound really dumb, but I can't find print function that accepts multiple arguments, makes spaces between them, and puts new line at the end. So (print-something "cats" "dogs" "whatever") should print as cats dogs whatever \n
11:37 samth: flying_rhino: there isn't a function that does exactly that built in
11:37 errstr: "{0}\n".format(' '.join([arg1,arg2,arg3])) should do the trick, iirc
11:37 stamourv: rudybot: (displayln (string-join '("cats" "dogs" "whatever") " "))
11:38 rudybot: stamourv: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
11:38 rudybot: stamourv: ; stdout: "cats dogs whatever\n"
11:38 stamourv: flying_rhino: ^
11:38 offby1: flying_rhino: there's a fair amount of "roll your own" here in racket-land :)
11:38 errstr: uhg, wrong channel, thought I was in python. sorry flying_rhino
11:38 errstr goes and sits in his corner
11:39 offby1: errstr: we figured :)
11:39 stamourv: errstr: Sadly, #lang python is pretty bit rotten these days. ;)
11:39 offby1: errstr: what's curious is that your solution and stamourv's are exactly equivalent
11:39 stamourv: Dunno if the source is available anywhere, though.
11:39 errstr: heh
11:39 offby1: stamourv: did someone really write a #lang python?
11:40 errstr: i need to turn on my channel list plugin in weechat, then i won't get confused of what channel i'm in
11:40 stamourv: Yeah. IIRC, some NEU undergrad wrote it for fun.
11:40 offby1: curious
11:40 samth: it wasn't just for fun, it was a reasarch project
11:40 samth: and it wasn't a #lang
11:40 stamourv: Oh, was it?
11:40 samth: it was a language in the drracket choose language sense
11:41 samth: search for python here; http://www.schemeworkshop.org/2003/
11:42 samth: the paper is here: http://www.cs.utah.edu/research/techreports/2003/pdf/UUCS-03-023.pdf
11:42 offby1: I didn't know those were two different meanings of the term "language".
11:44 samth: offby1: yeah, the languages you can choose in the language dialog are implemented quite differently
11:44 samth: and are tied to drracket
11:44 samth: (mostly)
11:45 offby1: hmph
11:46 offby1: I never knew that
11:46 samth: offby1: mostly you don't want to use the drracket-kind
11:46 offby1: Although I've occasionally wondered why I can't tell rudybot to "init advanced-student" or whatever
11:46 samth: you can do that, sort of
11:46 samth: rudybot: init lang/htdp-advanced
11:46 rudybot: samth: your lang/htdp-advanced sandbox is ready
11:47 samth: rudybot: init lang/htdp-beginner
11:47 rudybot: samth: your lang/htdp-beginner sandbox is ready
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11:47 samth: (map + (list 1 2 3))
11:47 samth: rudybot: (map + (list 1 2 3))
11:47 rudybot: samth: error: #<undefined>:1:1: map: this function is not defined in: map
11:47 samth: rudybot: (1 + 2)
11:47 (quit) jeapostrophe: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
11:47 rudybot: samth: error: #<undefined>:1:1: function call: expected a function after the open parenthesis, but found a number at: 1 in: (#%app 1 + 2)
11:47 offby1: I guess I just never figured out the string "lang/htd-advanced"
11:47 samth: ta da
11:47 samth: but those are only parts of the implementation of the student langauges
11:48 offby1: it's faintly possible that that language (or some other student language) would make a better default for rudybot -- assuming that most of his users are indeed used to that language
11:48 samth: for example, the printer/reader/interactions window/other stuff are customized in drracket
11:48 offby1: hm
11:48 samth: offby1: i think full racket is the right choice
11:48 offby1: certainly the easiest
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12:17 flying_rhino: samth: when can we expect typed racket to be finished? Any timeline?
12:17 samth: flying_rhino: what do you mean by "finished"?
12:18 flying_rhino: when it has all the important things untyped racket has. Like classes. I am not pushing you to finish it (I don't have right to), but I would like to know.
12:18 stamourv: flying_rhino: Software is never finished, only abandoned. ;)
12:19 asumu: Unless you're Knuth.
12:19 samth: flying_rhino: for classes, we're working on that at the moment
12:19 flying_rhino: great
12:19 stamourv: asumu: See abandoned.
12:19 samth: where by "we" i mean asumu
12:19 samth: but racket doesn't seem likely to stop adding cool new stuff
12:19 samth: so we will always have work to do :)
12:20 stamourv: But the good news is that a lot of that cool stuff just automatically works in Typed Racket.
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12:21 asumu: BTW, is this expected?
12:21 asumu: rudybot: init typed/racket
12:21 rudybot: asumu: your typed/racket sandbox is ready
12:21 asumu: rudybot: (define result ((inst call/cc Integer (-> Nothing)) (lambda (x) (lambda () (x 5)))))
12:21 rudybot: asumu: Done.
12:21 asumu: rudybot: (if (procedure? result) (result) result)
12:21 (quit) rudybot: Remote host closed the connection
12:21 asumu: rudybot: (if (procedure? result) (result) result)
12:22 stamourv: You killed him.
12:22 flying_rhino: samth: also can you change how typed compiler behaves a little? For example, when I don't specify type of something, it would be nice for compiler to assume that type is Any instead of giving me an error. Also when the function returns something that has a type, compiler should automatically assume that is also type of function, so I don't have to write that.
12:22 asumu: Oh.
12:22 asumu: I guess not then.
12:22 asumu: I'm good at that.
12:22 samth: flying_rhino: i'm not sure i understand
12:23 samth: for variables, it does assume that
12:23 samth: and i'm not sure what you're suggesting for function types
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12:25 Flatlander: samth, what's is the plan with classes & typed racket, actually?
12:25 flying_rhino: samth:for example in (define (add-two-numbers a b) (+ a b)) , it is obvious a and b are numbers because + is applied to them. It is also obvious result should be number, sinve + returns a number. Compiler should just fill all the blanks if I don't do it for him.
12:26 Flatlander: it seems like getting to typed to fully work with the racket OO system would be tricky
12:26 samth: Flatlander: the plan is for you to be able to write typed classes, and instantiate them and send objects messages etc
12:26 samth: and for this to work across the typed/untyped boundary
12:27 samth: and yes, there are hard parts, but we're wroking on them
12:27 Flatlander: how about using the untyped classes, like the GUI ones
12:27 samth: flying_rhino: so, you're asking for more type inference
12:27 asumu: Flatlander: that would work fine. Typed classes could inherit from them.
12:27 flying_rhino: samth: that would be nice
12:27 asumu: Or call methods on them. You'd have to import them with some type though.
12:28 asumu: (or they'd be provided as a stdlib in TR)
12:28 samth: flying_rhino: some of that will happen, but (a) it's quite hard for the type system used by typed racket, and (b) I don't think that global type inference is a good idea in general
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12:31 flying_rhino: samth: maybe not for global functions, but when I write inner function for something (to create recursion for example) it is a pain to specity type. But here is an idea: Instead of an error, how about compiler giving you a warning when you don't specity a type of something? Like WARNING: type of add-two-numbers not specified, Real assumed.
12:32 samth: flying_rhino: the reason it doesn't do that currently for local functions is that it's hard -- not every case is easy like `add-two-numbers`
12:33 samth: even `add-two-numbers` is tricky -- + has a complicated type -- should `a-t-n` have the same type as `+`?
12:36 flying_rhino: samth: I don't ask it to cover my butt every time, ony every time it is reasonably practical :) . You can have a list of 'assumed types for functions'. For + assumed tpe should be something least likely to cause problems, like Real. If it does create problems (because something else is of different type) it should move to next best type (like Float or whatever). It is just my suggestion....
12:37 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch
12:37 samth: flying_rhino: it turns out that making something like that work for a complicated type system like typed racket's is harder than you would think initially
12:37 samth: i do want TR to have more type inference in the future
12:37 samth: but it's not an easy problem
12:38 flying_rhino: samth:If it does find type that doesn't create error somewhere, it should give warning and compile the thing. If it does not, it should give an error.
12:38 samth: it's the "finding a type the doesn't create an error" that's hard
12:39 flying_rhino: samth: it goes through a list of prefered types for that function (for + it is different numbers, I think) and If it can't, then error it is.
12:40 samth: flying_rhino: this is a topic with a substantial research literature
12:40 samth: i have some ideas on how to improve it
12:40 samth: but we're unlikely to come up with a clever new type inference algorithm over irc :)
12:40 flying_rhino: samth: great
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12:41 offby1 awards the Iron Cross to asumu
12:41 asumu: offby1: Sorry. :)
12:41 asumu: And I am honoured.
12:41 offby1 grumbles
12:42 offby1: happily, the one you found a day or two ago has been fixed, or at least they closed the bug
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12:42 offby1: rudybot: uptime
12:42 rudybot: offby1: I've been up for twenty seconds; this tcp/ip connection has been up for seventeen seconds
12:43 asumu: Yeah, it was a bunch of C hackery that probably only Matthew can fix.
12:44 asumu: Seemed like it was solved via adding a level of indirection and also fixing GC of continuations somehow.
12:44 asumu: But I have no idea really. Scary part of Racket. :)
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12:45 asumu: samth: so that thing I was trying to demonstrate with rudybot. For some reason the captured continuation only works once. Are call/cc continuations implicitly one-shot in TR?
12:45 samth: asumu: no
12:46 asumu: Hmm.
12:46 samth: asumu: you're probably running into the implicit prompt around every expression you give to rudybot
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12:51 Flatlander: Is anybody aware of any "scripting" languages implemented in Racket? Something like Javascript or Lua perhaps?
12:53 Flatlander: I guess a more boring and mainstream surface syntax for racket could work too
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12:58 asumu: Flatlander: Does BF count? ;)
12:58 jonrafkind: Flatlander, https://github.com/kazzmir/Honu/blob/master/asteroids/asteroids.honu like this?
12:59 asumu: there's also pyret http://planet.racket-lang.org/display.ss?package=pyret.plt&owner=wrturtle
13:00 Flatlander: asumu, :)
13:00 Flatlander: jonrafkind, pretty much exactly
13:01 jonrafkind: thats what I work on, you can use it if you want
13:01 Flatlander: it's of course.. umm, for a friend. I have no problem with the parentheses
13:02 jonrafkind: its ok, i think parentheses are terrible
13:04 Flatlander: jonrafkind, is that asteroids using the allegro game library?
13:04 jonrafkind: yea
13:06 asumu: samth: Actually, I see what I was confused about. The continuation that was captured is (define result [...]).
13:06 Flatlander: Personally I have been waiting for http://www.sfml-dev.org/ to come out with the 2.0 version, I'll probably write bindings for it then
13:07 asumu: So the first time it sets result, then it mutates it the result of the call.
13:07 Flatlander: of course pure racket opengl game library would be lot cooler but I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble
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13:08 jonrafkind: theres sgl bindings
13:10 jonrafkind: Flatlander, its sort of hard to make c++ bindings
13:10 Flatlander: jonrafkind, it's a pain. But sfml has C bindings :)
13:11 jonrafkind: ah
13:11 Flatlander: something I wish more C++ developers would think of
13:11 offby1: OK, bug submitted
13:12 offby1: http://bugs.racket-lang.org/query/?cmd=view&pr=12705 if anyone cares
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13:13 Flatlander: asumu, that pyret thing looks pretty good too
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13:20 Flatlander: is Honu part of Racket or should I download it from somewhere?
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13:21 jonrafkind: its part of racket
13:21 jonrafkind: you should use git if you want to use it
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13:22 Flatlander: ah, okay
13:23 Flatlander: How functional is it? Any particular gotchas?
13:23 jonrafkind: well, its alpha quality i guess
13:23 jonrafkind: usually i change the implementation when something needs to work
13:31 Flatlander: there is a little game project I should be working on and I'm going to need something friendly looking but still extensible for the designer guy to work with, Honu looks like a good candidate
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13:32 Flatlander: full programming language might actually be a bit overkill in this case, but you never know
13:32 jonrafkind: well the idea is it fully supports macros so you could make a DSL for him
13:34 Flatlander: yeah, that was the idea
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13:38 asumu: Flatlander: have you seen Matthew Flatt's article on creating languages? That sounds like the kind of thing you want.
13:40 Flatlander: asumu, I _think_ I have read it
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13:40 Flatlander: there is so much this language creation thing going around Racket that it's hard to be sure...
13:42 asumu: Flatlander: it's this article http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/1/144809-creating-languages-in-racket
13:43 asumu: I wonder if Matthew has the copyright on that. Could it be a tutorial in the Racket docs?
13:43 Flatlander: right, that's it. It certainly helped a lot
13:46 jonrafkind: asumu, you mean did matthew have to give acm copyright to publish it?
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13:50 asumu: jonrafkind: right.
13:50 asumu: Oh, I guess you could ask him.
13:50 asumu: Esp. since it's not a holiday over there.
13:51 jonrafkind: its a holiday in boston?
13:51 asumu: Yeah, MA has Patriot's Day today.
13:51 jamessan: Patriot's Day, aka the marathon is too much of a pain to deal with, so stay home
13:51 jonrafkind: wtf..
13:51 jonrafkind: i thought the super bowl was in february
13:51 jtpercon: it's also a holiday in Washington DC apparently
13:51 jamessan: it's mainly a Boston thing
13:51 jtpercon: which is why tax day is tomorrow
13:52 samth: it's a different holiday in dc
13:52 jtpercon: yeah
13:53 jtpercon: I forget what
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14:08 samth: jtpercon: emancipation day, when lincoln freed the slaves in dc
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14:08 jtpercon: right
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15:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Co-ulQ
15:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix problem with continuations and `call-in-nested-thread' - Matthew Flatt
15:45 (part) RacketCommitBot
15:46 offby1: NEXT!
15:46 offby1: 2:30 ... pretty good turnaround
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15:51 stamourv: offby1: Fastest I remember was 17 minutes.
15:52 stamourv: Was about a week ago. I reported a bug where `list-tail' was corrupting its argument, go get coffee, come back and it's fixed.
15:52 stamourv: Matthew's awesome.
15:54 offby1: hm, maybe I shudda got coffee
15:58 bremner: I switched to beer. I can recommend that.
16:04 dyoo: tea for me.  :)
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16:43 leaner: so any thought on racket on llvm ?
16:47 samth: leaner: people worked on it for a while, but it's not obvious how it would enable anything in particular, and dealing with the racket runtime is hard for such a compiler
16:53 leaner: at which level was the work done ?  from the racket bycote to llvm or directly from racket code
16:53 leaner: ?
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16:55 samth: leaner: i think it was directly from fully-expanded racket programs, but it was a long time ago and done by other people
16:58 leaner: ok, i seems to be that using the bytecote would have been simpler no ?
17:01 samth: maybe, but maybe not
17:01 samth: fully-expanded racket programs are actually simpler than bytecode
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17:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Ld7Ihg
17:52 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Include both float zeroes in Non-Negative and Non-Positive types. - Vincent St-Amour
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18:20 dyoo: leaner: about Racket on llvm: you may want to ask Eric Dobson about this if you have his contact info
18:20 dyoo: leaner: I remember that when here was here at Brown, he had a side project going on that sounded like it was Racket/LLVM specific
18:21 dyoo: unfortunately, I don't have his current contact info
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18:40 stamourv: dyoo: He hangs out in here.
18:40 stamourv: mithos28: ^
18:40 stamourv: (But he's not here right now.)
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21:58 lewis1711: should I 1. try and finish my very simple prototype object system with macros I don't really understand 2. use the inbuild object system which I don't like or 3. just use structs with fields that are also structs and recursion lots instead of object programming?
21:59 bremner: yes
21:59 lewis1711: that wasn't an answer :(
22:34 flying_rhino: lewis: you got inspired by Steve Yegge, didn't you?
22:39 lewis1711: flying_rhino: nope. heard of him though
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22:40 neilv: if you read much practitioner writing about programming, sometimes it sounds like a bunch of auto mechanics making a huge deal out of the best way to change an oil filter
22:40 neilv: so many opinions. so important
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22:47 neilv: (i was skimming some random web page. not commenting on this channel)
22:48 lewis1711: haha
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23:06 lewis1711: how would you even program a game functionally anyway? do you just break every game "object" up into little structs/components, and write functions that take the old state of some component and return a new one, then rebuild your "objects" every game tick, using a recursive loop?
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23:41 asumu: lewis1711: 4) use macros over the in-built macro system to get what you want. ;)
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