00:00 ozzloy: yes, this class is an intro to programming
00:00 ozzloy: well one is
00:00 ozzloy: the other is how to build a self driving car
00:01 ozzloy: why would it not be worth establishing credentials?
00:01 ozzloy: s/build/program/
00:03 mithos28: I think the difference is between good and great. They are making a good class in practice, vs me who is commenting on a better class (but not actually implementing it).
00:03 eli: ozzloy: Establishing credentials is fine, when they're relevant.  For example, if I make a up an online class and tell you that I was a combat engineer, then you shouldn't be very impressed.
00:03 eli: But I don't see any syllabus for the 212 thing.
00:08 ozzloy: mithos28, yeah, there's definitely a lot of room for improvement
00:12 ozzloy: eli, on a side note, were you a combat engineer?
00:12 bremner admits to being curious too ;)
00:13 eli: Yes.  Now admire my PL course because of that!
00:13 eli: (BTW, in case it's not clear: any relation between "combat engineer" and "engineer" is a coincidence...)
00:13 ozzloy: so ... does it help that the course introduces programming through the project of building a search engine?
00:14 ozzloy: does that make having the google guy more acceptable?
00:14 eli: It's a misguided (IMO) attempt at choosing a popular target project.
00:14 ozzloy: ah, that's entirely plausible
00:15 eli: It starts at the *good* idea of "look, we'll have trees for learning", but it also ends there.
00:15 ozzloy: oh, actually, that's right up your alley, isn't it?
00:15 ozzloy: teaching programming
00:15 ozzloy: or ... is that more felleisen and findler?
00:15 eli: The result is either going to be an inherent toy, or something that goes through the mud of parsing HTML, dealing with web servers, and other such stuffs.
00:16 eli: (I do that too -- but I'm mostly in the PL side, not the intro to CS one.)
00:16 eli: Anyway, my guess is that they're not going to bother students with all that gunk, which means that it will be a toy...
00:16 ozzloy: yeah, that's unfortunate
00:17 eli: Then they slap pagerank on top of that, and the math behind it is very hairy, so my guess is that this aspect will also be some watered down quick glance at the subject.
00:17 ozzloy: oh there's tons of watering down in the self-driving-car class
00:18 ozzloy: haven't gotten far enough in the search-engine-building class to have seen stuff watered down yet
00:19 ozzloy: man, i'd really like to see content delivered in this way from HtDP
00:19 eli: (I can't bring myself to register to that thing...)
00:19 ozzloy: register to udacity?
00:19 ozzloy: i don't think you have to to see the videos
00:19 ozzloy: they're all on the youtubes
00:19 eli: Oh, let me see.
00:20 ozzloy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IbwMz3Hgt4Y picked at random
00:20 ozzloy: from the build-a-search-engine class
00:21 eli: (Whenever I see that google guy smile, I can't stop laughing.)
00:21 ozzloy: heh, yeah
00:21 ozzloy: sebastian looked very creepy in the ai class
00:22 ozzloy: the "i'm going to murder you with glee!" smile
00:23 ozzloy: there are also these forums associated with the class http://www.udacity-forums.com/cs101/
00:23 ozzloy: and a schedule for the class, and a bunch of people taking it at the same time (which makes the forums more useful)
00:25 eli: ozzloy: I need a barf bag.
00:25 eli: (What's the deal with using a computer screen to have hand-written text?)
00:26 ozzloy: lulz, yeah, that part confuses me
00:26 eli: In any case, that class is very much unlike HtDP.
00:28 ozzloy: i haven't actually read HtDP.  i planned on doing that after i read through the guide, but now that i'm thinking about it, i've since learned that i don't need to wait and could start now
00:28 eli ughs
00:28 eli: "print True or this_is_an_error"
00:29 eli: Returns true, because python is a hack...
00:29 mithos28: eli what are your gripes with python?
00:29 ozzloy: i also have gripes with python!
00:29 ozzloy: i really want a racket version of this!
00:30 eli: mithos28: Many.  But for this part it's the lack of a syntax error when using an unknown global.
00:31 mithos28: That also annoys me
00:31 mithos28: I dislike it aswell, but have to use it at work
00:32 mithos28: It is not the worst language that I have to use though, at least it has lexical scope
00:32 eli: mithos28: My favorite python example is the misguided function that returns a hash for the current function scope...
00:33 mithos28: can you mutate that hash, to then mutate the scope?
00:33 eli: ozzloy: So after seeing about three short videos of that thing, I can tell you that my opinion of it is decreasing linearly with the number of minutes I spend watching it...
00:33 ozzloy: heh
00:34 eli: mithos28: I think that you can't, the whole thing looked to me like an attempt to keep backward-compatibility with a dark past when you could.
00:34 ozzloy: ok, so the content can be improved
00:34 ozzloy: but the medium, the delivery
00:34 mithos28: is that better than or worse than javascripts eval("var x = 3")?
00:34 eli: ozzloy: If by "improved" you mean dump and rewrite, then yes, it can be improved...
00:35 mithos28: which defines x as 3 in the local scope
00:35 ozzloy: yes
00:35 eli: mithos28: Yes, JS is fighting with the same brokenness, but at least there it's exposed via "eval" rather than a name that makes it look like a kosher thing to do.
00:36 eli: mithos28: And BTW, last time I checked, at least chrome treated `eval' as a special keyword that works when it's literally inside a function.
00:36 eli: So you can't use it as a higher-order function, or do something like `var foo = eval'.
00:37 mithos28: my understanding is that if the eval function is used from its original binding it is special
00:37 eli: But I think that samth said that this is something that is somehow changing.
00:37 mithos28: yes it is changing
00:37 mithos28: in harmony
00:37 (quit) yoklov: Quit: computer sleeping
00:37 eli: What's harmony?\
00:37 mithos28: js v6
00:38 mithos28: the current work in progress
00:38 mithos28: it is designed by committee, like scheme
00:38 mithos28: but at least they have some good proposals
00:40 mithos28: like ephemermons for weak hashes
00:42 ozzloy: mithos28, wait, what?  eval("var x = 3") defines x outside of the eval?
00:42 ozzloy: (in javascript)?
00:42 mithos28: yes
00:42 ozzloy: 0.0
00:43 mithos28: http://wingolog.org/archives/2012/01/12/javascript-eval-considered-crazy
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00:44 ozzloy: hahaha
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00:51 ozzloy: mithos28, nightmares.  well on that note, i'm going to sleep
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00:56 nilyaK: I find this useful for javascript, put your code through that and you will feel bad, at least I do.
00:56 nilyaK: ffs
00:56 nilyaK: 2nd fire alarm in 1 hour
00:56 mithos28: at least you aren't asleep, and it isn't the middle of winter
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01:32 nilyaK: it is the middle of winter.
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04:12 noelw: I would just like to note
04:12 noelw: it isn't the middle of winter
04:12 mithos28: It was 70 over the weekend here
04:13 mithos28: so not winter
04:13 noelw: I don't grok Farenheit
04:14 noelw: But I know the sun is shining
04:14 mithos28: 21
04:14 noelw: That's warm!
04:14 mithos28: yes it was
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06:21 dardanelli: earlier today, eli said: "So after seeing about three short videos of that thing, I can tell you that my opinion of it is decreasing linearly with the number of minutes I spend watching it..."
06:21 dardanelli: eli, can you give us the links for those videos, please?
06:22 dardanelli: (it,was about python inconsistencies etc.)
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09:01 samth: dardanelli: eli's comment was about the udacity intro programming class
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09:02 samth: eli, mithos28: the situation for eval in JS is a little more complicated than you were saying
09:02 samth: 1. eval(...) has access to the local, lexical environment, and that isn't changing
09:03 samth: but that's only if the operator is a reference to the name "eval" *and* is actually bound to the correct eval value
09:03 samth: 2. var foo = eval; foo(...) is still eval, but it only accesses the global environment (the way eval in racket works)
09:03 samth: 3. in ES6, there will be something more like the 2-argument eval in racket, where you can control the namespace that things are evaluated in
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09:10 JohnnyL: what does [] stand for in Racket/
09:10 bremner: ()
09:11 bremner: the brackets are interchangable. the pairs just need to match
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09:21 JohnnyL: ok
09:21 JohnnyL: thanks
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11:01 stamourv: eli: pong
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13:36 Skola_: window 9
13:37 Skola_: fail
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13:37 eli: stamourv: reping
13:38 stamourv: eli: pong
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13:38 eli: stamourv: There are two big problems with any porting of scsh.
13:38 stamourv: Listening.
13:39 eli: The first is that you can't do a proper port since it uses fork+exec, whereas racket always bundles them.
13:39 eli: (scsh also relies on low level things like duping fds but that's probably hack-around-able)
13:40 eli: The other problem is with the implicitly quasiquoted syntax of `run' -- I don't remember the exact nature of the problem, but I know that Mike Sperber has been saying that it was a bad choice for a long time (and he has some example for exactly how it goes wrong).
13:41 stamourv: Being 100% compatible with scsh doesn't sound all that important. I'm sure we can live without the numerous libraries that people have written for scsh.
13:41 eli: So for any shell-scripting-in-racket, I think that scsh is not useful to take design decisions from, or to be compatible with.
13:41 stamourv: You don't think there are design decisions worth stealing?
13:41 samth: eli: there are a lot of design decisions in scsh besides the syntax of `run;
13:42 eli: Not really.  I didn't see anything unique that goes beyond what you get from any shell (like "make a pipeline").
13:43 eli: One place where it *could* have done things better than an average shell is around IO ports -- for example, when you want to do any kind of IO wiring that goes beyond the usual stdin/out connection.
13:43 stamourv: Well, the interesting part is how to integrate that with Racket.
13:44 eli: I can imagine several ways to do a syntax for such wiring, but scsh just punts on the whole thing and resorts to sh-isms like dup this fd, then redirect that one.
13:44 eli: It's a mess that a higher level language should address.
13:45 eli: (And I don't remember seeing anything other than that which looks useful.)
13:45 eli: (samth: Do you know of other such decisions?)
13:46 samth: eli: the DSL for shell pipelines (which wouldn't have to be implicitly quoted), the api for posix commands, i'm sure there are others
13:47 eli: samth: So, I continue to hold my opinion...
13:48 eli: That DSL, after you remove the quasiquotes, is basically just a way to conveniently use unquoted symbols as command arguments.  Take away that quasiquote, and you're left with: accept either strings, or symbols/numbers and pass them as command-line strings.
13:49 eli: The "posix" thing is mostly that port-twiddling (irrelevant, as above), or execution (impossible, as above).
13:52 eli: stamourv: In any case, I don't have an intention of stopping danking fro such a project -- I'd just much prefer it if he doesn't waste time on dead ends.  (Which is why I asked asumu to put my name next to that thing.)
13:54 stamourv: danking and I discussed this in the past, and I think the idea really was to have a scsh-like thing, as opposed to a scsh port.
13:55 stamourv: But we haven't talked about that in a while.
13:55 stamourv: (Actually, haven't seen him in a while.)
13:55 eli: OK, so if/when you do see him, ask him to talk to me before he makes significant moves...
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14:58 PfhorSlayer: is there a way to specify minimum width and alignment and such when doing a racket printf format string?
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15:17 samth: PfhorSlayer: no, but see fmt.plt on planet
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16:38 offby1: yeah, fmt is flexible, and also intriguing in its API design
16:38 stamourv: How so?
16:50 offby1: curse you for putting me on the spot! :)
16:50 offby1: I can't remember the details; I think it's a collection of a large number of relatively small functions, meant to be combined.
16:50 offby1: The word "composable" comes to mind.
16:50 stamourv: Sounds reasonable so far.
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17:49 Aune: Hello, I have a problem with continuations. Im trying to implement cooperative multitasking as I have heard call/cc makes this easy. But I get som extra output in this example:   http://hpaste.org/64907
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18:12 PfhorSlayer: Thanks, guys (re: fmt)!
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18:38 danl-ndi: hey, how do I obtain the return value from a thread?
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18:41 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (lambda () 1)
18:41 rudybot: danl-ndi: your sandbox is ready
18:41 rudybot: danl-ndi: ; Value: #<procedure>
18:41 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (thread (lambda () 1))
18:41 rudybot: danl-ndi: ; Value: #<thread>
18:42 danl-ndi: how do I  get that 1?
18:44 offby1: you don't.
18:44 offby1: You can arrange to have one thread communicate to another
18:44 offby1: but that takes work
18:45 offby1: there's also call-in-nested-thread
18:45 offby1: whose purpose I never really understood
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18:45 danl-ndi: offby1: I see.. do you happen to know if someone's done that work?  seems like a general approach to set up channels to spawn the thread then wait on the thread and it's return value
18:46 offby1: that might be what call-in-nested-thread actually is
18:46 offby1: rudybot: doc call-in-nested-thread
18:46 rudybot: *offby1: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/threads.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._call-in-nested-thread))
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18:46 danl-ndi: it is... but it suspends the caller thread until the thread exits
18:46 offby1: each thread also comes with a message queue
18:46 offby1: rudybot: doc thread-send
18:46 rudybot: *offby1: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/threads.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._thread-send))
18:46 offby1: that's probably the easiest thing to use
18:48 danl-ndi: yeah it looks like it. although I'm temporarily stuck with plt 3.5 which doesn't have that (not built in at least)
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18:49 offby1: then use channels; as far as I know, they're the same thing
18:50 offby1: rudybot: doc channel-put
18:50 rudybot: *offby1: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/channel.html#(def._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fmisc..rkt)._channel-put))
18:50 danl-ndi: yup they are. just a little legwork needed.
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18:53 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (let ((ch (make-channel)))
18:53 danl-ndi: (thread (lambda ()
18:53 danl-ndi: 			(channel-put ch 1)
18:53 danl-ndi: 			))
18:53 rudybot: danl-ndi: error: #<undefined>:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `('
18:53 danl-ndi: oops
18:54 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (let ((ch (make-channel))) (thread (lambda () (channel-put ch 1)))  (channel-get ch))
18:54 rudybot: danl-ndi: ; Value: 1
18:55 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (define (get-this thing) (let ((ch (make-channel))) (thread (lambda () (channel-put ch thing)))  (channel-get ch)))
18:55 rudybot: danl-ndi: Done.
18:55 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (get-this "asdf")
18:55 rudybot: danl-ndi: ; Value: "asdf"
18:55 danl-ndi: pretty cool
18:55 danl-ndi: rudybot: eval (get-this (list 1 2 "asdf" 'zxcv))
18:55 rudybot: danl-ndi: ; Value: (1 2 "asdf" zxcv)
18:55 offby1: *shrug*
18:56 danl-ndi: well, cool to me a 50 hour/week C++ programmer. Y'all are used to this stuff ;)
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19:03 offby1: oh indeed
19:04 PfhorSlayer waves at Dan.
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20:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/r1v0IQ
20:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add an example to the racket/draw guide - Robby Findler
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23:56 neilv: i'm getting better at porting from plt 4.x to racket
23:56 neilv: today i ported several million lines of code :)
23:58 jonrafkind: that word 'ported' does not mean what you think it means
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23:59 neilv: it's consistent with usage from 20+ years ago, in the unix workstation developer community
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23:59 jonrafkind: cp a/million_lines_of_code b/. ; would seem to be the same thing you just said