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01:31 ozzloy: wow, that shootout person was annoying
01:32 ozzloy: "i'm going to go to your turf and argue with you" "why don't you two argue somewhere else?" "nope, now that i've put in my last word, i don't want to continue arguing!"
01:33 ozzloy: so i'm thinking: how to design programs delivered like udacity classes.  short videos with quizes every few videos and code that gets interpreted
01:33 ozzloy: is this pretty much exactly what realm of racket will be?
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08:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/zTnG3g
08:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] improvements to the bitmap docs - Matthew Flatt
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08:26 ChibaPet: Hey, is anyone working on Racket for Android in the sense of a native application, as opposed to let's-compile-to-JavaScript?
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08:32 noelw: Don't think so
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08:45 bremner: ChibaPet: fwiw, I've heard of people using kawa for android apps.
08:48 ChibaPet: Interesting. I'll look at that.
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09:06 samth: ChibaPet: for non-gui apps, you could probably just compile and run it
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09:34 ChibaPet: Oh, hm. Google App Inventor is written in Kawa.
09:34 ChibaPet: Neat. I'll call that a mandate.
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13:37 jonrafkind: is it possible to view plot's in the command line racket repl?
13:37 jonrafkind: if I just do (plot ...) it gives me back (object:...)
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13:51 samth: jonrafkind: how would that work?
13:51 samth: ascii art?
13:52 jonrafkind: no, popup a gui thing
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13:52 asumu: jonrafkind: well if you want it to pop up a canvas%, you can do it easily on your own.
13:52 asumu: Using plot/dc.
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13:52 jonrafkind: (plot/dc (plot ...)) ?
13:54 asumu: More like (define dc (send canvas get-dc)) (plot/dc (points ...) dc ...)
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14:01 asumu: jonrafkind: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QPY
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14:01 asumu: (you may need to resize the frame to see anything)
14:01 jonrafkind: i just wanted to display the plot from robbys post
14:01 asumu: Well, use DrRacket then.
14:02 jonrafkind: maybe someday
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15:29 osa1_: how do you distribute your racket apps? is there a way to compile racket apps with all it's dependencies? how much would it be bigger if I compile a simple hello world racket app to binary?
15:31 bremner: osa1_: you can try it out with raco compile
15:31 bremner: it is pretty big, as it includes (most of?) the runtime system
15:33 osa1_: I'm wondering if there's a lisp with native binary compiling option which doesn't add +20mb to app, like Haskell(it adds about 1mb to hello world)
15:33 osa1_: bremner: how fast is racket for scripting? for example, Clojure is great language but not good for scripting because of JVM open
15:34 osa1_: s/open/startup
15:34 bremner: osa1_: it depends a lot on what "language" you load. with racket/base it is pretty snappy
15:35 bremner: oh, hello world is only 600k
15:35 osa1_: bremner: 600k? it's great
15:36 bremner: it's actually "raco exe hello.rkt"
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15:36 bremner: wow, with #lang racket it is 3.6M (600k is racket/base)
15:36 osa1_: bremner: hmm I'm on linux, let me try that there's a probably that it will generate executable with huge size
15:36 osa1_: bremner: can oyu post your code
15:37 osa1_: what's difference between lang racket and racket/base?
15:37 bremner: more libraries
15:37 osa1_: bremner: can you paste your code?
15:37 bremner: http://paste.debian.net/157339/
15:38 osa1_: bremner: I got this error: "load-handler: expected a `module' declaration for `hello' in #<path:/home/sinan/racket/hello>, but found something else"
15:40 osa1_: ok
15:40 osa1_: it's 695198 :)
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15:41 osa1_: with #lang racket
15:41 bremner: hrm.
15:41 bremner: what version of racket?
15:41 osa1_: bremner: I'm planning to use racket for a game project, how good is racket for concurrency? can I take advantage of multiple cores?
15:41 osa1_: bremner: 5.2.1
15:42 bremner: osa1_: I can't really answer that.
15:42 bremner: osa1_: ok, maybe there are some fixes. I'm still on 5.2 here.
15:43 bremner: osa1_: it has the standard threaded stuff. futures http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/futures.html?q=concurrency sound cool, but I have not use them
15:43 stamourv: osa1_: Re multicore: Check out places and futures.
15:43 stamourv: rudybot: doc place
15:43 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
15:43 rudybot: stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/places.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fplace..rkt)._place))
15:44 bremner: this looks gentler: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/performance.html?q=concurrency#(part._effective-futures)
15:45 stamourv: Right.
15:46 osa1_: ok, thanks
15:46 osa1_: do we have any libraries for games?
15:47 jonrafkind: i started a binding to a C level graphics library
15:47 osa1_: jonrafkind: SDL?
15:47 jonrafkind: allegro5
15:47 jonrafkind: i had sdl bindings somewhere at osme point
15:47 osa1_: jonrafkind: how is it going? is it stable?
15:48 jonrafkind: well I made asteroids and pong with it
15:48 jonrafkind: but the bindings are not complete
15:48 osa1_: having a kind of stable game library would be great
15:49 osa1_: so for now my alternatives are clojure + processing, python + pygame, or racket but it mostly depends to the racket library
15:50 bremner: you could look at Universe, and see if it suits you.
15:50 (nick) mattmigh` -> mattmight
15:51 osa1_: bremner: I can't even find it's homepage, do you have it?
15:51 bremner: docs.racket-lang.org has a very nice search
15:51 asumu: osa1_: How does the clojure processing wrapper work? I thought processing was a language rather than a Java library?
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15:53 bremner: rudybot: init racket
15:53 rudybot: bremner: your sandbox is ready
15:53 osa1_: asumu: it's just normal java library. when you run processing ide, write some functions and save, what basically done is just putting this methods to a java class inherited from a processing class, which contains are methods you use without knowing in your processing functions
15:53 bremner: rudybot: docs universe
15:53 rudybot: bremner: at the risk of causing the universe to implode, I will say again that ams is right.
15:53 bremner: sigh
15:53 bremner: rudybot: doc universe
15:53 rudybot: bremner: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: 2htdp/universe
15:53 osa1_: asumu: so it's not a language, they are cheating :)
15:53 stamourv: rudybot: (require 2htdp/universe)
15:53 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
15:53 rudybot: stamourv: error: Gtk initialization failed for display ":0"
15:54 stamourv: rudybot: doc universe
15:54 rudybot: stamourv: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: 2htdp/universe
15:54 asumu: osa1_: Oh, I see. I wonder how hard it would be to implement #lang processing.
15:54 stamourv: rudybot: You're not very helpful, are you.
15:54 rudybot: stamourv: not sure i want to meet the kind that want to go to mars
15:54 osa1_: asumu: actually I'd like to work on something like that but I'm not sure about racket's gui capabilities(especially for game like stuff)
15:56 asumu: osa1_: So as I understand it, processing is a 2D graphics framework right? I imagine you could implement all of it on top of the racket/draw API.
15:56 asumu: I've implemented most of, say, the PGF API using racket/draw.
15:57 asumu: s/say/for example/
15:57 osa1_: asumu: 2D and 3D with help of openGL
15:58 asumu: osa1_: I can't say much about the 3D support, but there is an OpenGL binding. The 2D support is pretty good.
15:58 asumu: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/sgl/index.html
15:59 osa1_: asumu: implementing processing on top of racket is pointless since it's a java library, it's an API for java which means it's doing thing in java way, our library would be a completely different drawing API maybe
16:00 osa1_: asumu: also, processing is handling not only drawing but also sounds and user input
16:00 osa1_: asumu: can you send me the link of 2d drawing library of racket?
16:00 samth: rudybot: doc racket/draw
16:00 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
16:00 rudybot: samth: not found in any library's documentation: racket/draw
16:00 asumu: osa1_: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/draw/index.html
16:01 samth: rudybot: (require (for-label 2htdp/universe))
16:01 rudybot: samth: Done.
16:01 samth: rudybot: doc universe
16:01 rudybot: samth: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: 2htdp/universe
16:01 samth: grr!
16:01 asumu: I'm also hoping someone will put together some cool games with http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/teachpack/2htdpPlanet_Cute_Images.html
16:01 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/75pxz32
16:04 osa1_: asumu: I don't think these libraries are good enough. what we need is at least a wrapper of SDL/allegro/etc.
16:05 jonrafkind: osa1_, https://github.com/kazzmir/racket-allegro-5
16:05 jonrafkind: two games using it: https://github.com/kazzmir/Honu
16:06 jonrafkind: they are written in my language Honu, but its just syntactic sugar on top of racket
16:09 osa1_: jonrafkind: so how's OCaml compared to Racket when it comes to games? (yeah I saw your OCaml game in github)
16:10 jonrafkind: oh we are rewriting that ocaml game in scala
16:10 jonrafkind: i have many angry things to say about ocaml
16:10 jonrafkind: even without beer i can launch into a hate filled speech with curse words!
16:10 bremner: do any of them apply to typed racket ? ;)
16:10 jonrafkind: probably!
16:11 bremner: hmm. not sure Scala will make you happy then.
16:11 jonrafkind: well the problems with ocaml were not with its type system actually, its type system was fairly useful
16:11 jonrafkind: the problems were mostly in its error handling abilities
16:11 jonrafkind: also the fact that getting a sane environment set up is a nightmare
16:12 jonrafkind: racket is actually far worse in its error handling abilities, imo
16:13 jonrafkind: im starting to believe large scale software requires types
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16:13 jonrafkind: there is simply no way to make sure all the various interfaces in a program are in sync otherwise
16:14 osa1_: jonrafkind: doesn't unit tests help this? people are building great software with python for example
16:14 jonrafkind: bleh, im not so sure. unit tests help, but sometimes its hard to write unit tests
16:14 osa1_: jonrafkind: have you tried haskell?
16:14 jonrafkind: only a little
16:15 jonrafkind: im not too thrilled about the purity aspect and the lazy stuff
16:15 osa1_: jonrafkind: of course I prefer if some mechanism in the language makes unit-tests unneccessary
16:15 jonrafkind: mutability is useful
16:17 osa1_: I agree with you on mutability. I tried making some simple games with haskell but it was just too much math for sake of purity
16:17 jonrafkind: ya
16:17 jonrafkind: its simply a waste of time to try to make every algorithm pure
16:18 osa1_: but still I wouldn't call it waste of time :)
16:18 osa1_: I'm planning to attend next google ai challange with haskell
16:18 jonrafkind: i imagine writing a program in haskell is like solving a mathematical proof
16:18 jonrafkind: either it works or it doesnt, and when it does you know its right. but it might take 1000 years
16:19 asumu: jonrafkind: contracts?
16:19 jonrafkind: not even close
16:19 asumu: Also, what do you mean "error handling" capabilities?
16:19 jonrafkind: stack traces = fail. macro errors = fail
16:19 osa1_: obviously there are people relly productive with haskell and it doesn't take 1000 years for them
16:19 osa1_: really*
16:19 asumu: jonrafkind: You're not actually complaining about tail recursion + stack traces are you?
16:19 jonrafkind: yes
16:20 jonrafkind: i cannot live without accurate stack traces
16:21 asumu: jonrafkind: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-recursion-and-debugging.html
16:21 jonrafkind: that is completely irrelevant
16:22 jonrafkind: 99.99999% of the real world uses non-tail recursive languages every day
16:22 jonrafkind: the fact that you can produce code that breaks in a tail-recursive language is not surprising, and also not interesting
16:22 jonrafkind: sorry, non-tail-recursive
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16:22 asumu: I have never found stack traces in, say, Java useful. I use the Eclipse debugger.
16:22 asumu: What's needed for Racket isn't traces but an excellent debugger.
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16:23 jonrafkind: what do you use the eclipse debugger to do?
16:23 jonrafkind: you dont walk the stack trace sometimes?
16:23 jonrafkind: I find it extremely helpful in c++/java to know exactly the control flow that lead to a failure
16:23 asumu: Yeah, I step because the stack trace didn't tell me anything...
16:23 jonrafkind: ok yes if we could step through racket programs that might be good enough
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16:25 jonrafkind: ive never seen a language with only a high quality debugger and no stack traces though, so its hard to know
16:25 osa1_: so does racket have tail-call optimizations?
16:25 jonrafkind: yea
16:31 chandler: Having worked on a large scale (several hundred thousand lines of code) system in CL, I'd say that unit tests help very little. Contracts would have helped a lot, and probably would have made the unit tests more useful.
16:32 chandler: "NIL is not of type REAL" was a running joke at the office, and is indicative of the type of useless head-scratching error you get without contracts.
16:32 osa1_: chandler: what do you think of help of a strong type system? like haskell's ?
16:33 chandler: Types... well, I think they're very useful for certain types of systems, but in the system we were implementing, they probably would have just pushed the problem around.
16:33 jonrafkind: asumu, plus you know that a debugger for racket might be rather hard, somehow you have to link up the actual executed code (after expansion) to the pre-expansion code
16:33 jonrafkind: although i'm not sure how the stepper deals with that..
16:34 asumu: jonrafkind: even a debugger that operates on expanded code might be useful (?)
16:34 jonrafkind: well.. i doubt it..
16:34 jonrafkind: i mean you've seen fully expanded code right?
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16:37 samth: asumu, jonrafkind: there is already a single-stepping debugger that handles fully-expanded code
16:37 jonrafkind: where
16:37 samth: jonrafkind: hit the "debug" button in drracket
16:37 jonrafkind: i thought that was the stepper
16:37 jonrafkind: for student languages
16:38 samth: no, the stepper is only for student languages
16:38 samth: try in #lang racket
16:38 jonrafkind: im sure i had some problem with it.. i should write this stuff down
16:38 samth: it's certainly not perfect
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16:38 samth: but it's pretty nice
16:38 jonrafkind: well mostly my errors these days are at the macro level, so for that its useless
16:38 samth: and racket does, of course, have stack traces
16:39 samth: which are quite useful
16:39 jonrafkind: cmon, those traces are useless
16:39 samth: even when they omit some frames
16:39 jonrafkind: at best they point at the start of a function
16:39 samth: (as do debuggers for C, except at -O0)
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16:39 samth: just like C debuggers
16:39 jonrafkind: that is an irrelevant analogy. compile with -g3 and use gdb
16:39 samth: or stack traces, rather
16:39 jonrafkind: there is no equivalent for racket
16:39 samth: that's the debugger!
16:40 jonrafkind: were talking about stack traces
16:40 jonrafkind: ok well i guess -g3 doesnt matter in that case
16:40 jonrafkind: except that you get source location information
16:40 samth: yeah, you get better stack info in a debugger -- true in both racket and c
16:40 jonrafkind: the stack info is always present in C using #include <execinfo>
16:41 jonrafkind: what collection is the debugger in?
16:41 samth: gui-debugger
16:42 jonrafkind: oh yea, there are no break points
16:42 chandler has seen gdb fall down and fail numerous times even with -O0 and -g3
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16:43 samth: jonrafkind: try mousing over some expressions
16:43 samth: you can set break points
16:44 jonrafkind: how
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16:44 jonrafkind: oh i see, you can pause at non-tail recursive points
16:45 samth: what do you mean, non-tail-recursive points?
16:46 jonrafkind: oh the red bullet wasn't showing up on (+ 1 5) until i clicked around some more, strange
16:46 jonrafkind: I had (cons (+ 1 5) 4) and it showed up on the cons initially
16:47 samth: you just mouse over parens
16:48 jonrafkind: this would be great if it worked at the command line repl
16:48 samth: jonrafkind: feel free to implement it
16:48 jonrafkind: thanks
16:48 samth: it's actually build on errortrace/annotations
16:48 samth: so it should be feasible
16:48 jonrafkind: ive tried to hack errortrace before and failed
16:50 chandler: While we're figuring out how to use DrRacket: how do I get rid of the debugger stack pane and controls without clicking "Run"?
16:50 samth: chandler: i don't think you can, sadly
16:52 chandler: OK, good to know I haven't been missing something obvious.
16:52 samth: jonrafkind: btw, you should use `let' instead of `var' in honu
16:52 jonrafkind: why
16:53 samth: jonrafkind: http://blog.chromium.org/2012/02/future-of-javascript-take-peek-today.html
16:53 samth: or, more succinctly, `var' is really really horrible in JS, and i'm sure yours works like `let'
16:54 jonrafkind: just to be consistent with javascrit?
16:54 jonrafkind: well var is really define
16:54 samth: and with racket
16:54 samth: it's really letrec
16:54 jonrafkind: uh hu
16:54 jonrafkind: im not sure how many people really care about the name
16:54 samth: internal define = letrec
16:55 jonrafkind: if it was called 'flub' people would just get used to it
16:55 samth: also, since it's so close to JS now, i think you should use let (or at least support it)
16:55 jonrafkind: require prefix_in (var let); or whatever
16:55 (quit) osa1_: Quit: Konversation terminated!
16:55 jonrafkind: same thing with fun vs function. ultimately I just provide function as `fun'
16:55 jonrafkind: well I suppose I can just do the same with var and let
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16:58 samth: also, jonrafkind, why are you using = for *both* assignment and equality
16:58 jonrafkind: i dont think i am
16:58 jonrafkind: i changed = for equality to ==
16:58 samth: oh, then these are just bugs in the asteroids game
16:59 samth: https://github.com/kazzmir/Honu/blob/master/asteroids/asteroids.honu#L298
16:59 jonrafkind: uh did you see the /* */ ?
16:59 samth: aha
16:59 jonrafkind: the code is there to explain what the macro is doing, but i never updated the commented code when i changed = to ==
17:00 samth: makes sense
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17:39 WolfShield: When I build an .EXE for distribution, un-zip the file, and double click the program it will run just fine, but the console window pops up.  Can anyone tell me how to stop that from showing?  I'm running Windows 7 and using DrRacket.
17:45 chandler: Try adding (void) as the last expression in your main file.
17:53 WolfShield: Still shows command prompt for whole running time after created.
17:54 jonrafkind: WolfShield, http://docs.racket-lang.org/raco/exe.html?q=raco
17:54 jonrafkind: search for 'subsystem
17:55 jonrafkind: i guess the question is can you use that option in the command line tool or do you need to write some code that uses compiler/embed
18:00 chandler: there's an argument to raco exe for the aux parameter
18:00 asumu: samth: do you know who maintains gui-debugger BTW?
18:00 chandler: but I didn't need it last time I had this issue
18:00 chandler: WolfShield: Are you using #lang racket or #lang racket/gui?
18:01 asumu: If there are obvious GUI things missing (like a close button), that'd probably be easy to hack in.
18:02 WolfShield: chandler: #lang racket/gui
18:03 chandler boots up the VM to check
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18:05 chandler: WolfShield: Oh. I had to make sure that there were no top-level expressions at all that returned a value other than (void).
18:06 chandler: So, try something like (define (go) all-your-top-level-stuff-here (void)) (go)
18:06 chandler: Or just ((lambda () stuff-here (void)))
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18:07 samth: asumu: gulliaume/matthew/greg cooper to varying degrees
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18:10 WolfShield: chandler: You want me to put all of my code in a function and call it?
18:10 chandler: That's what worked for me. Of course the only top-level expressions I had were (send frame set-icon stuff-to-compute-the-icon) and (send frame show #t)
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18:24 WolfShield: Okay, sorry about that.
18:28 chandler: WolfShield: did that work?
18:28 WolfShield: Created a simple file as you suggested: ((lambda () (define frame (new frame% [label "Hello"])) (send frame show #t) (void)))  It still showed the prompt.
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18:35 WolfShield: I may have figured it out.  Let me run a couple tests.
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18:40 WolfShield: Hmm, I hadn't been running it in GRacket.  So my small program runs without the prompt in it, but my large one doesn't.
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18:59 WolfShield: Well, it no longer has the command prompt.  I added some menu-items as such: (new menu-item% ...) which sent some things to command prompt, making it open.  I had to go through and change them all to: (define menu-item1 (new menu-item% ...)) and then build it.
19:00 WolfShield: That's kind of a pain.  It'd be nice if there was an easier way.
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19:54 asumu: chandler: I'm about to commit a change that'll add a close button to the debugger, BTW.
20:14 chandler: Cool!
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20:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/TKGqAw
20:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] gui-debugger: add a close button - Asumu Takikawa
20:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] gui-debugger: update icons using Neil's icon set. - Asumu Takikawa
20:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] gui-debugger: Racketize - Asumu Takikawa
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20:24 samth: asumu: woot!
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20:39 ozzloy: who's doing udacity 373 in racket?
20:39 ozzloy: anyone in here doing that?
20:39 ozzloy: anyone in here doing htdp in udacity style?
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21:17 bluephoenix47: I'm trying to do non-deterministic pattern matches in redex. If in my language I define (P (a b)), can I not pattern match like [(P ... (a b) P_1 ...) stuff]?
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21:30 bluephoenix47: Ah nevermind, I can if I use the right pattern variables
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