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10:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Sak8og
10:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix type of `memf' to be more permissive. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
10:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix internal constructor name for `struct:' so that `struct-out' works. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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12:06 bremner: eli: it seems to be a bug that this doesn't typecheck in pl http://paste.debian.net/153891/
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12:36 bremner: oh, I see. (provide (rename-out [Real Number]))
12:36 bremner: but shouldn't number? get matching treatment?
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14:23 ApeShot: anyone else had the problem with geiser and racket that it doesn't seem to respect the PLTCOLLECTS environment variable?
14:23 ApeShot: If I run racket from the command line, it is fine
14:24 ApeShot: But when I run racket in geiser, it only has the standard paths, as if it is not seeing the env variable
14:29 bremner: ApeShot: what if you do M-x getenv
14:29 ApeShot: where?
14:29 bremner: in emacs?
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14:30 Harsha: hey
14:30 Harsha: how do i use the raco commands in the terminal on a mac?
14:30 bremner: type them in?
14:30 bremner: maybe I miss the real question.
14:30 Harsha: i put the racket folder from the .dmg in applications
14:31 Harsha: but how do execute a .rkt file in the terminal instead of drracket ide
14:32 bremner: Harsha: see section 1.3 in  the racket guide
14:33 ApeShot: bremner: emacs does not seem to see the environment variables
14:33 ApeShot: bremner: maybe this is a unity thing
14:34 bremner: ApeShot: could be.
14:34 ApeShot: bremner: I did not launch emacs from a terminal
14:34 Harsha: thanks, uhh i also tried using raco make  somefile.rkt
14:34 Harsha: in the terminal but that doesn't work
14:34 Harsha: it says command not found even when im in the racket bin directory
14:34 ApeShot: bremner: seems to be the case
14:34 ApeShot: bremner: thanks!
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14:34 bremner: sure, welcome
14:36 bremner: Harsha: you probably need to set up your patch. But I don't know very well how things work on Macs
14:36 bremner: sorry, path, not patch
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14:46 RPR: After converting/wrapping a number of racket programs to typed/racket I have yet to convert one where the typing did not uncover bugs.
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14:49 asumu: RPR: That's great. What kinds of bugs?
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14:52 Harsha: hmm anyone know how to add racket to path on a mac?
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14:59 offby1: I manage somehow; lemme see what I do
14:59 samth: RPR: great!
14:59 offby1: hmph
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15:20 Harsha: I typed in racket in the terminal on my mac and it created something like an interpreter
15:20 Harsha: how do i close this without closing the terminal window?
15:20 Shviller: (exit)
15:20 bremner: Harsha: also covered in the racket guide, chapter 1
15:21 Harsha: Yea I noticed the exit command in the guide but I didn't realize you needed parenthesis
15:21 bremner: oh, you must be new here ;)
15:22 bremner: the parens are pretty important in Racket
15:22 Harsha: yea I'm completely new. this language is very different from MATLAB
15:22 bremner: that is correct
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15:27 RPR: asumu: The vast majority were from non-sunny day return values.
15:28 RPR: asumu: A procdure which will return a #f or a eof-object or some error value but the calling code always assumes that the procedure never "fails", i.e. it always returns what is expected as long as the sun is shining.
15:30 RPR: eh I just bought some obscure indie album off Amzn and just checked to see what song was playing.  Its titled "The Price of Everything and the Value of Nothing."
15:31 bremner: hmm. that is a famous quote/aphorism, isn't it?
15:31 RPR: Yea.  Lispers know the value of everything and the price of nothing.
15:32 RPR: or cost of nothing.
15:32 RPR: http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html  #55
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16:40 eli: bremner: Right you are.  Funny how I never ran into this...  I'm using (match x [(number: n) (Num n)] ...)
16:41 bremner: yeah. I pulled out the rename for now, just to see how that goes.
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16:42 eli: What do you mean, which rename?
16:43 bremner: I mean I just commented out the (provide (rename-out [Real Number])), and just provide TR's Number
16:44 eli: bremner: That would make things hard.
16:44 eli: The main problem is that students are very used to `Number's being things that you can compare, etc.
16:44 bremner: my students aren't used to anything ;)
16:44 bremner: but yeah I get your point
16:45 eli: Well, you'd end up having to explain `Real' and suffer with it throughout the semester...
16:46 bremner: yeah. I don't like the divergence between TR docs and PL either though. Since there aren't really any PL docs
16:46 eli: And my (short) experience with that is that it gets tiring to explain why I keep writing "Number" in code as "Real"...
16:46 eli: FWIW, the reason I have very little experience with it is that initially TR tried to do the same thing.
16:46 eli: Then they corrected it.
16:46 eli: Then I had my fight with "Number" being what it is,
16:47 eli: and finally decided that this is insane, and completely distracting, and ened up doing that rename.
16:49 bremner: why not just use Real everywhere in the examples?
16:49 eli: That's what I considered for a short while and gave up.
16:49 eli: The thing is that for most of these `Number' really means integer.
16:50 eli: Just being sloppy about it, really.
16:50 eli: (Justified since it's irrelevant, but still sloppy.)
16:50 bremner: huh. well, I can always change the language back if it gets annoying.
16:51 bremner: just not right before an assignment is due ;)
16:52 eli: bremner: So right now you have the TR `Number', right?
16:52 bremner: yes
16:53 eli: so I think that I can say two things:
16:53 bremner: I mean, in my private PL. I haven't pushed it out yet
16:53 eli: (a) It would be interesting to hear if you had any problems with it down the road.
16:54 eli: Specifically, at some point I want them to have a "practical" language, and then trying to make it possible to compare numbers means that you need to switch from Number to Real.
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16:55 eli: (b) The option of just using Real from the start is interesting, I wonder if it will lead to problems (= being distracted by talking about the issue when you really don't care and just want to use whatever numbers Racket uses).
16:55 eli: (c) There's another option of abolishing `Number's completely (including `Real's), and just using `Integer's.
16:55 eli: I suspect that that risks getting a "toy" impression.
16:56 bremner: I guess for me it's clear that Real includes Integer, but maybe not so much for the students.
16:56 bremner: well, in the context of plai, I think numeric types are not very important.
16:56 eli will brb
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17:04 eli: bremner: I completely agree with both: it's clear that Real includes integers, but having to use it means talking about it, and `Number' is just accepted silently.
17:04 eli: And it's true that in the PLAI context it's not important which is why I tried to find a way to just not talk about the whole thing...
17:09 bremner: we talked a fair amount about the interplay between predicates and the type checker, which also is reason to have number? and Number match.
17:10 bremner: of course they could both refer to reals
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17:15 bremner: eli: thanks for the feedback. I have to make dinner now...
17:16 eli: bremner: Yeah, I should obviously rename `number?' too to be consistent.
17:16 eli: In any case, if you have more comments I'd be happy to hear.
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17:45 kudkudyak: I want to test wether a given argument (a mutable list) is an empty list, but the empty? predicate expects argument of type pair. I've looked at Reference 3.10, but found no obvious solution. How to perform the test?
17:45 samth: kudkudyak: that's false
17:45 samth: kudkudyak: (empty? '())
17:46 samth: rudybot: (empty? '())
17:46 samth: rudybot: eval (empty? '())
17:46 samth: rudybot: init
17:46 samth: offby1: kick rudyboth
17:46 rudybot: samth: error: with-limit: out of time
17:46 samth: rudybot: init
17:46 rudybot: samth: error: with-limit: out of time
17:47 rudybot: samth: error: with-limit: out of time
17:47 rudybot: samth: error: with-limit: out of time
17:47 kudkudyak: samth: I'm having this error: expected argument of type <pair>; given (mcons 'b (mcons 'c))
17:47 samth: kudkudyak: ah, ok
17:47 samth: i would use `null?'
17:48 kudkudyak: It's the same.
17:48 samth: kudkudyak: what language are you using
17:48 kudkudyak: racket/mpair    (i think)
17:49 kudkudyak: I could use mlist->list for this test script, but I don't like it.
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18:08 offby1: rudybot: (time (+ 1 2 3))
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 6
18:08 rudybot: *offby1: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n"
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18:16 samth: rudybot: (null? '()
18:16 samth: rudybot: (null? '())
18:16 rudybot: samth: Logout time = 8:18    Lost 0%  Idle 104%  Null time = 15:17:47:22
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18:16 samth: offby1: ?
18:17 rudybot: samth: error: with-limit: out of time
18:17 samth: offby1: rudybot hates me
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18:45 offby1: rudybot: (null? ' ())
18:45 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #t
18:46 samth: rudybot: (null? '())
18:46 rudybot: samth: ; Value: #t
18:46 samth: it works!
18:46 offby1: samth: the machine on which he runs was somewhat heavily loaded
18:46 offby1: it's better now
18:46 offby1 is too cheap to get anything better than an EC2 "micro instance"
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19:27 eli: samth_away: I've used the drdr graphs for the first real need now.
19:28 eli: Your UI decision with that damn click is absolutely *horrible*.
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20:06 vkz: guys is there a step by step manual showing how to properly setup Racket on a Mac? I'm trying to part from DrRacket and dive into command line here. Would like to be able to call racket in terminal, have bash completions, runs scripts with "#! /usr/bin/env racket" line, have man pages installed and all that. Help pls
20:09 (quit) yoklov: Quit: computer sleeping
20:15 offby1: I don't think there's any bash completion for racket; I don't even know what that could mean.
20:15 jonrafkind: there is
20:16 offby1: Unless you're just looking for bash-style completion _within_ racket
20:16 offby1: vkz: certainly, put the racket installation directory on your path.  This is trickier on OS X than on normal Unix boxes :-|
20:16 jonrafkind: collects/meta/contrib/completion/racket-completion.bash
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20:23 offby1: huh
20:23 offby1: who knw.
20:23 offby1: besides you.
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20:26 asumu: offby1: It's in the guide now, though admittedly not in an obvious place: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/guide/cmdline-tools.html#(part._.Bash_completion)
20:26 asumu: (by not obvious I just mean it's near the end of the guide)
20:27 vkz: so I just add: PATH=$PATH"/usr/local/Racket v5.2/ to my ~/.bash_profile and this should be enough?
20:27 vkz: assuming this is where I put my installation dir
20:32 asumu: vkz: You probably want to put the bin subdirectory.
20:32 asumu: Try it and then "source ~/.bash_profile" and see if it works.
20:33 vkz: yep, that works
20:34 vkz: do i need do anything special with other dirs in the main installation folder? like /lib ?
20:36 asumu: vkz: You shouldn't need to.
20:37 vkz: great! thanks asumu offby1
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