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01:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9briMw
01:44 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] temporary fix for broken dist-specs - Ryan Culpepper
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10:53 danking: rudybot: eval (equal? (stream-rest (stream-cons 1 empty-stream)) empty-stream)
10:54 rudybot: danking: your sandbox is ready
10:54 rudybot: danking: ; Value: #f
10:54 danking: Am I crazy?
10:55 offby1: yes
10:55 offby1: rudybot: empty-stream
10:55 rudybot: *offby1: (stream-cons (process) empty-stream) ?
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10:55 offby1: rudybot: eval empty-stream
10:55 rudybot: *offby1: your sandbox is ready
10:55 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #<stream>
10:55 offby1: rudybot: eval (equal? empty-stream empty-stream)
10:55 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: #t
10:56 offby1: rudybot: (equal-hash-code empty-stream)
10:56 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 369823
10:56 offby1: rudybot: (equal-hash-code (string-rest (stream-cons 1 empty-stream)))
10:56 rudybot: *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: string-rest in module: 'program
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10:56 offby1: heh
10:56 offby1: rudybot: (equal-hash-code (stream-rest (stream-cons 1 empty-stream)))
10:56 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 369862
10:57 offby1: streams don't "print", so maybe "equal" makes no sense for them
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10:59 Shvillr: I think that for streams equal? falls back on eq?
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11:01 offby1: rudybot: (eq-hash-code (stream-rest (stream-cons 1 empty-stream)))
11:01 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 1479636
11:01 offby1: rudybot: (eq-hash-code  empty-stream)
11:01 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 1479106
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11:06 stamourv: There's only one empty stream, just like there's only one empty list.
11:07 stamourv: Notice that you're doing `empty-stream' and not `(empty-stream)'.
11:07 Shvillr: Well, (equal? (in-list '()) (in-list '())) still fails.
11:08 Shvillr: So it goes beyond there being only one empty-stream
11:09 Shvillr: Did I guess correctly about equal? working the same as eq? for streams?
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11:11 stamourv: rudybot: eval (in-list '())
11:11 rudybot: stamourv: your sandbox is ready
11:11 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: #<stream>
11:12 stamourv: rudybot: eval (equal? empty-stream (in-list '()))
11:12 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: #f
11:12 stamourv: Ok, let me rephrase that: When you refer to `empty-stream', you always get the same one.
11:13 offby1: how dull
11:13 offby1: where's the variety?!
11:13 stamourv: You can create arbitrarily many streams that happen to not produce any values, but if you ask for a canonical empty stream, you always get the same one.
11:13 Shvillr: Yeah, and given how streams can be infinite, there's likely no way to compare them, except the way eq? does.
11:14 stamourv: offby1: You can bring the variety yourself. In fact, we just did. :)
11:14 stamourv: Shvillr: Exactly.
11:17 freakazoid: Are syntax parameters making it into r7rs?
11:18 stamourv: freakazoid: Probably not. They're not willing to consider anything beyond syntax-rules.
11:18 freakazoid: That's too bad
11:18 freakazoid: You can barely do anything with syntax-rules.
11:18 wsimpson: this seems to work
11:19 wsimpson: (stream-empty? (stream-rest (stream-cons 1 empty-stream)))
11:19 stamourv: freakazoid: The comittee doesn't seem to mind.
11:19 freakazoid: Seems like Scheme is forking into big-scheme and small-scheme
11:20 stamourv: But then again, I'm not sure that "getting things done" is one of the use cases they have in mind for Scheme.
11:20 freakazoid: haha
11:20 freakazoid: Sounds like the early days of Haskell
11:20 stamourv: Well, Scheme has been a set of fragmented communities around each implementation for quite a while.
11:21 freakazoid: So I've been gathering
11:21 stamourv: But syntax parameters are making their way into some implementations. I believe they're coming to Guile and IronScheme.
11:21 stamourv: wsimpson: Makes sense.
11:22 freakazoid: Perhaps it's time for a separate, descriptive versus prescriptive report.
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11:22 freakazoid: "This is how people implement Scheme" versus "this is how we think you should implement it."
11:22 freakazoid: or rather what features you should have
11:23 stamourv: That's what it was pretty much until R5.
11:23 freakazoid: ah
11:23 stamourv: It's called a report for a reason.
11:23 stamourv: Well, there was a reason.
11:23 freakazoid: Now it seems more like a report on the committee's decisions
11:24 stamourv: But the problem with that approach is that there's a lot of important things that everyone wants, but no-one can agree on.
11:24 stamourv: Like module systems.
11:24 freakazoid: at that point you just have to pick one, rather than throwing them all out
11:25 stamourv: Which is what R6 did.
11:25 stamourv: But that made a lot of people unhappy.
11:26 freakazoid: How did CL avoid doing that?
11:26 stamourv: And R7 is doing the same, and people will still be unhappy, but for different reasons.
11:26 freakazoid: R6 has syntax-case though, doesn't it?
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11:27 danking: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-13.html
11:27 stamourv: It does.
11:27 danking: Which is to say, it appears yes.
11:27 stamourv: And a lot of schemers don't like syntax case.
11:27 stamourv: But a lot of that is (IMO) due to not understanding it.
11:28 freakazoid: because they want referential transparency at all costs?
11:28 stamourv: I have a half-written essay about that stashed somewhere. I should finish it.
11:28 stamourv: Nah, because they thing that pattern matching is all you can do.
11:29 freakazoid: ah, I may be underestimating what's possible with syntax-rules
11:29 stamourv: Calling it the "syntax case" macro system doesn't help. `syntax-case' is just a higher-level pattern matcher. Syntax objects are the important part.
11:30 freakazoid: that makes sense
11:30 stamourv: IMO, it would be less confusing to just call it the "syntax objects" macro system.
11:30 stamourv: You can use `syntax-case' if you feel like it. Or `syntax-parse'
11:30 stamourv: which is much better.
11:30 stamourv: Ot you can muck around with syntax objects directly if you want.
11:30 stamourv: s/Ot/Or/
11:32 freakazoid: I've been trying to figure out why 'this' is done with a syntax parameter in racket/class rather than just a parameter
11:32 freakazoid: Oh, so it looks like a variable, duh
11:33 freakazoid: I haven't figured out how it's actually bound for a given method execution, though
11:39 Shvillr: Guys, is there a way to concisely treat a procedure that returns multiple values as a regular one? I hoped I could just ignore the "multiple values" part when I don't explicitely need it, like I did in CL.
11:39 danking: Shvillr: Which values do you want to ignore?
11:40 Shvillr: Ideally, I want (define x (a-procedure-that-returns-two-values)) to bind x to the first value returned and silently drop the second one.
11:40 Shvillr: The particular use case isn't a define, tho. It happens in a for.
11:44 danking: (let-values (((one two) (proc))) one) ?
11:44 danking: Usually when I run into this case I reconsider why I'm using a procedure that returns two values.
11:44 danking: Shvillr: ^
11:46 Shvillr: Well, I guess that's leftover reasoning from CL. That is, like optional function args are the last ones, the return values are ordered in terms of importance. Ith this case, a function returns a stream of CSV rows and a header, if it was at all present. So it can return either one or two values. And sometimes when it returns two, I don't care about the second one.
11:47 Shvillr: So I'll have to get used to explicitely and verbosely state that no, I don't need the second value. :)
11:49 danking: Shvillr: Maybe instead of returning two values you should have an ADT that represents a CSV Result that can be either false, (make-just-row ...), and (make-row-and-header ...) ?
11:49 danking: Well. Maybe that's not actually what you're looking for.. You know best about your own code.
11:50 Shvillr: I'll think about it some more. I don't particularly like the idea of going around proposing Racket do it the CL way. :D
11:51 stamourv: rudybot: (define-values (x _) (values 2 3))
11:51 rudybot: stamourv: Done.
11:51 stamourv: rudybot: x
11:51 rudybot: stamourv: ; Value: 2
11:51 stamourv: Shvillr: That's a bit nicer than `let-values'.
11:52 stamourv: And it makes it obvious that you're dropping the second value on the floor.
11:52 danking: Agreed.
11:54 Shvillr: Yeah, but it still expects the function to return two values, while what I hoped to achieve is to treat said function as returning only one value, only sometimes remembering that the second value can exist at all. This doesn't have to be done this way, of course, but I'm still interested in the why. Why not just allow (define x (values 1 2)) to bind x to 1 and drop the 2?
11:57 Shvillr: I'm quite ready to change the way I think about multiple return values, but it's better to know why the decision was made this way and not that way.
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11:57 stamourv: I believe the reasoning was that dropping the extra values was a source of errors.
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11:57 stamourv: Racket inherited that from Scheme, and Scheme has had that for some time, so I don't know the whole history.
11:58 Shvillr: I see.
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11:59 Shvillr: So okay, next time someone complains that the mailing list is getting slow, there's now something else than "is Racket Scheme?" I can post to liven it up. :D
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12:02 stamourv: Shvillr: Yep, and that one can actually lead to constructive discussion!
12:02 Shvillr: That's the whole point. :D
12:02 stamourv: But a quiet mailing list is not a bad thing. That means everyone is working, and that awesome new features are coming!
12:03 danking: stamourv: Or everyone is chatting in IRC.
12:03 stamourv: Hey, I'm working too!
12:04 stamourv: I just sent eli a patch to add graphical macro stepper support to xrepl.
12:04 Shvillr: Hey, that's not mutually exclusive!
12:04 stamourv: And now I'm trying to get the install script to install the bash completion scripts we have.
12:05 Shvillr: BTW, how do I get better error reporting in repl? Use xrepl? I don't want to launch DrRacket each time racket.exe doesn't tell me where the error in my script is.
12:06 Shvillr: (I don't use DrRacket because it's really slow on both my PCs for some reason)
12:06 chandler: Are you using errortrace?
12:06 samth: Shvillr: what is the error message you're getting?
12:07 Shvillr: Well, the one I've seen the most is when the error is in "running body", without telling me the line number.
12:07 freakazoid: Maybe what you need is an analog to 'cut' for multiple return values
12:07 Shvillr: And no, I don't use errortrace. I don't even know what that is.
12:07 (quit) freakazoid: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
12:07 samth: rudybot: doc errortrace
12:07 rudybot: samth: your sandbox is ready
12:07 rudybot: samth: not found in any library's documentation: errortrace
12:08 Shvillr: Hmmm, how about something like values* that is just like values, but doesn't complain when less values are caught? So that (define x (values 1 2)) still complains, but (define x (values* 1 2)) doesn't. How does this sound?
12:08 chandler: Shvillr: http://docs.racket-lang.org/errortrace/quick-instructions.html?q=errortrace&q=errortrace
12:08 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/89yzthu
12:08 chandler: and http://docs.racket-lang.org/xrepl/index.html?q=errortrace&q=errortrace#%28xrepl._errortrace%29 is handy if you're using xrepl
12:08 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6n34dq5
12:09 samth: Shvillr: how would that work?
12:09 samth: actually, i know how it would work
12:09 Shvillr: Cool, bacause I don't.
12:10 samth: rudybot: (define (expand l n) (cond [(<= (length l) n) (take n l)] [else (append l (make-list (- n (length l)) #f))])
12:10 rudybot: samth: eval (append '() 'a)
12:10 samth: rudybot: eval (define (expand l n) (cond [(<= (length l) n) (take n l)] [else (append l (make-list (- n (length l)) #f))])
12:10 rudybot: samth: error: #<undefined>:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `('
12:10 samth: rudybot: eval (define (expand l n) (cond [(<= (length l) n) (take n l)] [else (append l (make-list (- n (length l)) #f))]))
12:10 rudybot: samth: Done.
12:11 samth: rudybot: eval (define (values* . args) (let/cc k (define n (procedure-arity k)) (apply k (expand args n))))
12:11 rudybot: samth: Done.
12:12 samth: rudybot: eval (define-values (x) (values* 1 2))
12:12 rudybot: samth: error: <=: expects type <real number> as 2nd argument, given: (arity-at-least 0); other arguments were: 2
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12:12 samth: damn
12:12 samth: i was hoping
12:12 chandler: I think freakazoid's suggestion of a `cut' for multiple values is a good idea, because the implicit value-dropping behavior of CL has lead to a number of errors on larger projects in my experience. Specifying explicity at the receiver that the value should be dropped is a better idea, IMO.
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12:16 Shvillr: So far I'm liking my values* idea (if it can at all work. I have no idea, guys). It would allow me to use multiple values like I described: "here is the primary value, but if you want some extras with it, there are more values you can bind". And since it doesn't change how values behaves, people who don't really mean it won't get burnt by it.
12:18 chandler: rudybot: init racket
12:18 rudybot: chandler: your sandbox is ready
12:21 chandler: rudybot: eval (define (values* . args) (if (null? args) (values) (let/cc k (let loop ((args args)) (if (procedure-arity-includes? k (length args)) (apply k args) (loop (drop-right args 1)))))))
12:21 rudybot: chandler: Done.
12:22 chandler: rudybot: eval (define x (values* 1 2))
12:22 rudybot: chandler: error: define-values: context (defining "x") expected 1 value, received 2 values: 1 2
12:22 chandler: rudybot: eval (add1 (values* 1 2))
12:22 rudybot: chandler: error: context expected 1 value, received 2 values: 1 2
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12:23 samth: chandler: it won't work
12:24 samth: `(procedure-arity k)' always produces the same answer for all continuations
12:24 chandler: Yeah, I see that now - I thought it was just `define-values' that was the problem.
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13:28 jonrafkind: how do you get the modification time for a file?
13:28 jonrafkind: aha file-or-directory-modify-seconds	
13:37 freakazoid: oh hey you can use syntax parameters with syntax-rules
13:37 freakazoid: I hadn't realized that
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15:33 ChaozZBubi: ahoy
15:33 freakazoid: o/
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15:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/7e92_w
15:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add `stream' to `racket/stream' - Matthew Flatt
15:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] generalize `gcd' and `lcm' to work on rationals - Matthew Flatt
15:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add some missing checks on bytecode parsing - Matthew Flatt
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17:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/dHFczQ
17:11 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add 'shift, 'control, 'rshift, and 'rcontrol events - Matthew Flatt
17:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/6cMfIg
17:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add comments to the inliner. - Vincent St-Amour
17:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Add TR support for gcd and lcm on rationals. - Vincent St-Amour
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17:45 loz2: hi
17:48 loz2: i'm reading data from process like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/126366
17:48 loz2: is this ok to append and set! bytes, or there is better way?
17:50 jonrafkind: i guess its fine
17:50 jonrafkind: otherwise you could get a list of all the bytes and do (apply append bytes)
17:50 jonrafkind: or something
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17:51 loz2: jonrafkind: get list of all bytes?
17:52 jonrafkind: I was thinking of using for/fold and repeatedly call (read-bytes-line in) so that you get a list of all the bytes you read
17:53 loz2: sounds good, i'll try it
17:53 loz2: thanks)
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18:01 loz2: jonrafkind: but how do i finish for/fold when eof object appear?
18:02 jonrafkind: #:when (eof-object? ...)
18:05 loz2: ok :)
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18:27 loz2: jonrafkind: there is port->bytes-lines
18:27 jonrafkind: sounds reasonable
18:28 samth: there's also `in-bytes-lines'
18:30 loz2 must read reference more attentively
18:30 samth: jonrafkind: what's the difference between 'raco auto foo.rkt' and 'raco make foo.rkt
18:31 jonrafkind: lulz robby just asked me the same thing
18:31 jonrafkind: a) raco auto compiles stuff from collects b) it handles version mismatches
18:31 jonrafkind: one thing it doesn't do yet is handle dependancies.. working on that
18:31 jonrafkind: sorry, dependancies of dependancies
18:31 jonrafkind: so x -> y ->z, if you compile all of them and update z, y won't be recompiled
18:32 samth: 'raco make' will compile things from collections
18:32 samth: and it will recompile if the zo is out of date
18:32 jonrafkind: sigh
18:32 jonrafkind: if you are in ~/tmp and run raco make x.rkt
18:32 jonrafkind: it will not compile anything from collects
18:33 samth: jonrafkind: no, that's not true
18:33 jonrafkind: ok before i check, the version mismatch is a real thing
18:33 samth: what do you mean?
18:34 jonrafkind: if you do 5.1-raco make x.rkt; 5.2-raco make x.rkt; 5.2-racket x.rkt; it will complain that x was compiled with 5.1
18:34 samth: i've never seen that happen -- i thought it recompiled them
18:35 jonrafkind: i just tested and thats what happened
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18:35 jonrafkind: ok stuff from collects is being built by 'raco make' now, i could have sworn it didn't use to do that
18:36 jonrafkind: the rational was something like 'what if we don't have write access to collects'
18:36 samth: drracket doesn't do it
18:38 jonrafkind: so if 'raco make' would recompile stuff when there was a version mismatch it would be better than my tool
18:48 jonrafkind: hm, now raco make is working with compile versions all of a sudden
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19:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/YAoNqw
19:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fix documentation to avoid drdr warnings. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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20:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/PWmtoQ
20:00 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Minor fix to fuzzer. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
20:23 (nick) samth -> samth_away
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21:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/esRqxA
21:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] improve syntax error reporting for judgment-holds in reduction relations (and - Robby Findler
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21:46 michal``: hey all. is there an easy way to open a REPL on an already-running racket instance?
21:48 michal``: aha. geiser provides a tool for that. nevermind. thanks. :)
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23:00 loz2: hm, anyone knows kind of tutorial or examples of custodians usage?
23:01 loz2: i need to limit ram usage for processes on web server
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23:27 asumu: loz2: I think custodian-limit-memory might let you do this, but I've never used that API before.
23:28 asumu: I can't seem to find a guide entry on it. Matthew does have a paper on it with some examples, but I don't know how helpful it will be to you: http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/ismm04-wf.pdf
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