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07:26 sindoc: Is this the right way of starting to develop a GUI-enabled application in Racket? https://gist.github.com/1430067 Any tips are appreciated :)
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08:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/IxDSJg
08:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix an over-eager reordering by the bytecode compiler - Matthew Flatt
08:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] JIT tweak - Matthew Flatt
08:57 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix future resume in runtime thread with extra stack space - Matthew Flatt
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10:08 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/Ap75cQ
10:08 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix meta/check-dists - Matthew Flatt
10:08 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix no-futures, no-places build - Matthew Flatt
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11:09 dvanhorn: is there a way to make an appendix in scribble?
11:25 offby1: sindoc: I don't know but my hunch is "yes".
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11:36 sindoc: offby1: Thanks; I'm trying to find my way around the framework collection for which there doesn't seem to be any guide-like documentation but so far so good. It only looks scary from the outside ;)
11:49 offby1: nuts, I was about to say "surely they have some introductory documentation?"
12:08 sindoc: A good hint on framework hierarchy of frames: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/drracket/private/unit.rkt#L4816
12:08 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7e8hsgm
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12:39 offby1: odd
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15:37 danking: I think memf's description is actually ormaps: http://docs.racket-lang.org/htdp-langs/intermediate-lam.html?q=memf#(def._(lib._htdp-intermediate-lambda..rkt._lang)._((lib._lang/htdp-intermediate-lambda..rkt)._memf))
15:38 danking: Same is true for the intermediate w/o lambda and advanced languages.
15:39 Demosthenes: i was just reading about python and their lambda support... its crippled! i was disappointed.
15:45 offby1: stop the presses :)
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15:52 bremner: Demosthenes: congrats, you win a prize as the 100,000th lisp user disappointed by python
15:54 Demosthenes: yay! what do i get? a free pony?
15:55 bremner: free disappointment
15:55 Demosthenes: or just a lingering sense of dissatisfaction?
15:55 Demosthenes: yay! its a gift that'll stay around a while ;]
15:55 Demosthenes: really though, i'm frequently stuck in the situation where lisp (common lisp, and later racket) are great for the 90% of the time when i make a command line program to process something for me.
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15:56 Demosthenes: but, i can't distribute software, write a UI, or access libraries needed for more "complete" application development
15:56 asumu: danking: If you rewrote it as "If the function given as the first argument produces a non-false value for any item in the second argument, returns that item in a list"
15:56 asumu: then it'd be accurate I think.
15:56 Demosthenes: sooo, i had python recommended.
15:56 asumu: I think it's just mixing up true vs. truthy.
15:56 Demosthenes: it has some neat tweaks, but it's still not lisp :P
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15:57 Pauan: (and basically all the tweaks can be written as macros anyways...)
15:57 asumu: danking: Since it'd be a misleading entry for ormap too, since the function argument to ormap has to return a boolean.
15:57 Pauan: I haven't missed Python one bit once I moved to Arc
15:57 samth: Demosthenes: what goes wrong with writing a UI/accessing libraries/distribution in Racket?
15:57 Pauan: (well, okay, I haven't missed it *after I started hacking on the Arc compiler*...)
16:01 offby1: Pauan: sounds like you haven't yet tried to write anything that actually gets real work done :-|
16:01 Pauan: I guess it depends on what you mean by "real work"
16:01 offby1: something an employer might pay for.
16:02 Pauan: hm...
16:02 Pauan: I'm not sure, as I haven't tried to sell my work
16:05 offby1: Believe me, if I could get paid to hack in Arc -- or even in racket -- I would.
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16:53 Demosthenes: samth: i'm not a comp-sci student. to my dismay programming is my third profession, and i have a lack of time to spend on it... so saying "hey, you can FFI to any lib you like" is useless to me, if its not in planet i'm stuck.
16:54 Demosthenes: so ncurses is right out.
16:54 samth: ah, so what you mean is that it doesn't have enough libraries already
16:54 jonrafkind: ncurses is a terrible interface anyway
16:54 Demosthenes: i looked at the racket gui, and it appears (please take with a grain of salt) to be more like "here are the basic gui components", when i need some basic support for forms/data entry and premade widgets
16:55 jonrafkind: if you wanted that then ncurses is even more terrible
16:55 Demosthenes: and i'm still a bit shakey on distributing racket, though at least it compiles to a binary and that warrants further study.
16:55 Demosthenes: yeah, but thank god ncurses isn't X. ;] and it does forms
16:56 Demosthenes: really, i've written quite a bit of data processing in racket already. love the mongo support, first class functions makes my life sooo easy... and i haven't gotten stymied by stupid language issues like i did with common lisp.
16:57 Demosthenes: but i need to throw together a basic biz app, data entry forms, premade search reports, against an SQL DB, for end users to use, not just me.
16:57 Demosthenes: i'm not sure i can do it in a timely manner in racket. that is likely more about ME than racket.
16:57 jonrafkind: use html for the gui
16:57 Demosthenes: one more comment about web frameworks and i commit sepuku
16:57 offby1: :)
16:57 jonrafkind: ..what>?
16:58 Demosthenes: i can't say i care for the web. i'd rather spit on it than write html. ;]
16:58 Demosthenes: i was intending a simple curses (ie: console) interface, or gui via X (remote)
16:58 Demosthenes: not you, every local programmer i confer with is "make it a web app!"
16:59 jonrafkind: it seems to solve all your immediate problems
17:01 jonrafkind: there are various projects to embed the gecko engine inside your application, but thats not so easy to do and im not sure how to do it in racket
17:01 Demosthenes: i'm not confident of that. really, i've made a point of staying away from web frameworks. having to learn/configure a web server and middleware layers, given how much i detest html... it sounds faster to learn more ncurses or a X gui framework
17:01 Demosthenes: no middleman, straight to client
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17:02 jonrafkind: your application can act as the web server
17:03 jonrafkind: its quite trivial, just open a port (doesnt have to be 80) and respond to HTTP
17:05 Demosthenes: i fully acknowledge i have some major personal biases... but have you ever used 90% of the biz apps out there that are web based? i don't mean slick cloud services that're up to date. i mean... biz apps.
17:06 jonrafkind: instead of implying a point, what is your point
17:07 Demosthenes: for data entry apps, most of them rely on basic html form behavior. my experience is that they have been slow and clunky
17:08 Demosthenes: i know that can be a function of how it was written... but you'd think a major vendor like oracle would have their act together.
17:08 Demosthenes: between html forms and page refreshes, they're terrible to use.
17:08 Demosthenes: now, i'll give you some of these new ones based on ajax are snappy, fast, and provided a consistent UI
17:08 Demosthenes: like many of the cloud providers
17:09 Demosthenes: but really, i'm a unix guy. if i can just stick to a text based console, i do
17:09 jonrafkind: yea, html doesn't scale well for complex apps. but its better than nothing, and its relatively easy to make a nice looking gui
17:09 Demosthenes: the only reason i'm even considering a GUI (i agree a web framework might work too), is that there's a link from financial data to a scan where i may need to show a photo :P
17:10 Demosthenes: racket has the DB support (postgres and mongo), no prob there.
17:10 Demosthenes: ncurses isn't provided (its unlikely i'm going to write an ffi, chicken scheme has this builtin), and i'm the only programmer i can work with that knows racket
17:11 Demosthenes: so after a positive experience with calibre, i was taking another look at python. i figure if i got over the parens for lisp variants, i can get over white space tied to scope
17:12 Demosthenes: *sigh* it occurred to me i could make this app in filemaker pro (what a throwback!), except i only use open tools. ;]
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17:54 asumu: Demosthenes: What kinds of text entry and widgets do you see needing?
17:54 asumu: (text-field% and text% provide some support, but I suspect you mean something more high-level like a spreadsheet?)
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17:58 Demosthenes: actually, i saw many widgets, just not a "forms" library, perhaps i need to look deeper but that means i'd handle those myself or have to cobble together, which isn't the end of the world.
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17:58 Demosthenes: but a data entry widget (calender items, text with validation, multiple choice or radio), i think many of those are available. a spreadssheet like view for the reporting was an item i thought was missing
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18:22 asumu: Yes, AFAIK there's no high-level abstraction over forms. I bet a DSL for forms wouldn't be too hard to write though. That'd be an interesting thing to design.
18:23 asumu: And yeah, I don't know if there's a calendar widget for example. These are probably issues of either "nobody's asked for one" or that not all platforms fit into a universal API.
18:24 asumu: In any case, if you have some concrete suggestions of how to patch the holes in UI functionality, you might send them to the mailing list so the "powers that be" are aware.
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19:11 offby1_: Demosthenes: If you go the HTML route, consider quickui.org ... I worked with the author and he's a very good UI guy.
19:39 offby1 seconds that
19:41 ozzloy: does racket have computer vision libs?  like load an image from disk, detect edges, corners, etc?
19:42 ozzloy: i see libs for generating images and scribble seems to be able to load an image from disk, but i don't see how to work with the loaded image
19:42 samth: ozzloy: i don't think anyone's mentioned writing that stuff
19:42 (nick) samth -> samth_away
19:42 ozzloy: cool
19:43 ozzloy: i'll roll my own as much as i need to/can
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20:59 loz`: hi
21:01 loz`: any way to count whitespaces in begining of the string better than loop/counting variable?
21:01 offby1: probably not, actually.
21:01 offby1: maybe use regexp-match to grab the longest whitespace string
21:01 offby1: then string-length on that
21:02 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #rx"^ +" "   frotz")
21:02 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: ("   ")
21:02 offby1: rudybot: (string-legnth (regexp-match #rx"^ +" "   frotz"))
21:02 rudybot: offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: string-legnth in module: 'program
21:02 offby1: rudybot: (string-length (regexp-match #rx"^ +" "   frotz"))
21:02 rudybot: offby1: error: string-length: expects argument of type <string>; given '("   ")
21:02 offby1: pff
21:02 offby1: rudybot: (string-length (first (regexp-match #rx"^ +" "   frotz")))
21:02 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: 3
21:02 offby1: loz`: that's the general idea anyway
21:02 offby1: rudybot: (string-length (first (regexp-match #px"^[[:space:]]+" "   \t   \tfrotz")))
21:02 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: 8
21:02 loz`: got it, thanks guys :)
21:02 offby1: etc etc
21:03 loz`: owch
21:03 loz` thanking a bot
21:04 loz`: rudybot: (+ 2 2)
21:04 rudybot: loz`: your sandbox is ready
21:04 rudybot: loz`: ; Value: 4
21:04 loz`: is he written in racket?
21:04 offby1: yep
21:04 offby1: rudybot: (banner)
21:04 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.2.\n"
21:04 offby1: rudybot: source
21:04 rudybot: offby1: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
21:04 offby1 blushes
21:05 loz`: wow, really cool)
21:06 offby1: the source is sorta a mess but I had fun writing it.
21:06 offby1: rudybot: can you sing a song for our guest?
21:06 rudybot: offby1: don't sing that song
21:06 offby1: rudybot: why are you in a foul mood?
21:06 rudybot: offby1: ok, i'm in a good mood, i retract that and apologise for it
21:06 offby1: rudybot: that's considerate of you.
21:06 rudybot: offby1: i'm not sure i want to  buy blood-spurting gum with 50 cups of coffee equivalent in caffeine, but they present it entertainingly
21:06 offby1: er, ok
21:07 loz`: :D
21:20 loz`: offby1: hm, why there are two ['s in "^[[:space:]]" ?
21:20 offby1: oh boy
21:20 offby1: that's gonna be tough to explan
21:21 offby1: explain
21:21 offby1: the outer [] mean "this is a set of characters".
21:21 offby1: The [:space:] is some syntax that means "those characters that are considered whitespace".  But why that syntax has brackets?  I have no idea.
21:21 loz`: (string-length (first (regexp-match #px"^[:space:]+" "\t   \tfrotz")))
21:22 offby1: say it to rudybot
21:22 offby1: probably won't do what you want
21:22 offby1: that means "the set of characters including colon, s, p, a, c, and e"
21:23 offby1: regexp syntax is sort of arcane, and for extra amusement, there are like five similar-but-subtly-different flavors in the wild
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21:25 loz`: wow, emacs died
21:26 loz`: rudybot: (string-length (first (regexp-match #px"^[[:space:]]+" s)))
21:26 rudybot: loz`: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: s in module: 'program
21:26 loz`: (string-length (first (regexp-match #px"^[[:space:]]+" "\t   \tstring")))
21:27 loz`: rudybot: (string-length (first (regexp-match #px"^[:space:]+" "\t\tstr")))
21:27 rudybot: loz`: error: first: expected argument of type <non-empty list>; given #f
21:27 jamessan: [:...:] is a character class which can be used in a collection.
21:27 loz`: yep, i know, but dont understand second brackets
21:27 offby1: they're like second breakfasts
21:28 offby1: well, maybe not.
21:28 jamessan: it's a way to distinguish the character class from other characters
21:28 offby1: loz`: they don't make a whole lot of sense, so don't knock yourself out.
21:28 jamessan: [abc[:space:]123]
21:28 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[aeiou]" "xyzzy")
21:28 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: #f
21:28 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[aeiou]" "aeeeoooo")
21:28 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: ("a")
21:28 jamessan: that will match a single character which can be a, b, c, 1, 2, 3, or whitespace
21:28 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[aeiou]+" "aeeeoooo")
21:28 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: ("aeeeoooo")
21:28 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[aeiou]+" "how do you do")
21:28 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: ("o")
21:29 offby1: a single set of [] means "all the characters contained within"
21:29 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[[:graph:]]+" "how do you do")
21:29 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: ("how")
21:29 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[[:white:]]+" "how do you do")
21:29 rudybot: offby1: hmm, sako, this error has nothing to do with ido
21:29 loz`: o, i see
21:29 offby1: rudybot: eval (regexp-match #px"[[:white:]]+" "how do you do")
21:29 rudybot: offby1: error: #<undefined>:1:17: read: bad pregexp string: unmatched `]' in pattern
21:29 offby1: huh
21:29 loz`: > [abc[:space:]123] - good example)
21:29 offby1: that's interesting
21:29 jamessan: offby1: [:space:]
21:29 offby1: tx
21:29 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[[:space:]]+" "how do you do")
21:29 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: (" ")
21:29 offby1: *nod
21:29 offby1: can't remember all the vagaries.
21:30 offby1: rudybot: (regexp-match #px"[[:digit:]]+" "how do you do, 2 or 3 times")
21:30 rudybot: offby1: Nice. If I use https should I still use de (base64) thinggy? Or is it useless already?
21:30 offby1: heh
21:30 offby1: rudybot: eval (regexp-match #px"[[:digit:]]+" "how do you do, 2 or 3 times")
21:30 rudybot: offby1: ; Value: ("2")
21:30 offby1: weird.
21:30 offby1: you'd think I of all people would know how to formulate expressions for the bot.
21:31 jamessan: why should you have any special privileges just because you're the author? :)
21:32 offby1: oh I dunno.
21:33 offby1: I also get the honorary leading *: behold
21:33 offby1: rudybot: who's your daddy?
21:33 rudybot: *offby1: Wondering from place to place... I have an uncle who's like that.
21:33 offby1 nods smugly
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22:04 loz`: rudybot: (length "123")
22:04 rudybot: loz`: error: length: expects argument of type <proper list>; given "123"
22:05 offby1: rudybot: (length (string->list "123"))
22:05 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 3
22:05 Pauan: rudybot: (string-length "123")
22:05 rudybot: Pauan: your sandbox is ready
22:05 rudybot: Pauan: ; Value: 3
22:05 offby1: Pauan: no, that's too obvious!
22:05 Pauan: silly offby1
22:06 offby1: rudybot: revile him!
22:06 rudybot: *offby1: Better discovered by him than by a tokyo drifter, I suppose.
22:06 Mellow: The label on text fields seems to be bugged on windows.
22:07 loz`: hm, i can't insert &nbsp; into responce directly =\
22:07 loz`: they are escaped
22:09 Mellow: Can someone confirm that the "Your name" label doesn't render correctly here: http://goo.gl/NxjbO
22:10 Mellow: On windows it just says "Your"
22:10 offby1: I'll try on OS X
22:10 offby1: looks fine
22:10 Mellow: If it remove the space it works.
22:11 Mellow: Seems to be a windows problem then.
22:11 offby1: report it on the mailing list
22:14 Mellow: Hm, "Your nak" works but "Your nam" does not.
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22:21 offby1: you'd have to define what "works" means.  I typed "howdy" into the box and hit Enter, but I didn't notice anything happen.
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22:51 Mellow: offby1, it's the label that's the problem, not the text box.
22:54 offby1: hm, let's look again
22:55 offby1: It says "Example" at the top, and "Your name" by the edit thingy.
22:55 offby1: I'd show you a screenshot if I knew how :-|
22:56 Mellow: Yeah, on my system it says "Your     "
22:57 offby1: ginormous .tiff, if you want it
22:57 Mellow: Ugh, creating a distribution archive is also bugged.
22:58 offby1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/offby1/6457443963/
22:59 Mellow: I know what it's supposed to look like.
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