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01:05 colinyu: hello, i'm new, and I was wondering whether any could help me on a problem I'm having?
01:05 mithos28: colinyu: sure just ask
01:06 colinyu: thanks, i'm in the early stages of learning drracket so bear with me
01:06 colinyu: i'm using a cond clause
01:07 colinyu: is there anyway that there can be two consequents to one condition?
01:08 mithos28: what would those two consequents be?
01:08 colinyu: two functions
01:08 jonrafkind: (begin (a) (b))
01:09 colinyu: so would i write: [else (begin (a) (b))] ?
01:09 jonrafkind: yea
01:10 colinyu: i get the error that begin is not defined, its probably because im using the beginning student language
01:10 colinyu: is there any other way to write this?
01:10 mithos28: what does your first function do?
01:11 colinyu: i'll write out the function i guess
01:11 colinyu: (define (rptday m y)
01:11 jonrafkind: if you want to return two values from the cond, one from each function, then maybe you want (list (a) (b))
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01:11 colinyu: (cond
01:11 colinyu: [(> lo (daycompute m y)) "blank"]
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01:11 colinyu: [else ((add1 lo) (daynum lo))]
01:11 colinyu: and thats it
01:12 jonrafkind: is this a homework problem?
01:12 colinyu: so pretty much what i'm aiming for is that if lo < (daycompute m y), i want it to add1 to the variable lo, and then use lo for the function daynum
01:13 jonrafkind: (daynum (add1 lo))
01:13 colinyu: i guess, i'm trying to create a calendar
01:13 colinyu: ohh
01:13 colinyu: wow that's simple
01:13 colinyu: thank you
01:13 jonrafkind: you seem to have a mutation-based idea of programming, is that because you know other languages? (php, c, java)
01:14 colinyu: yeah, i can write code in c
01:14 colinyu: making the change has been quite hard for me
01:14 jonrafkind: ok, well forget everything you know about c when using scheme
01:14 colinyu: i've been trying too
01:14 colinyu: *to
01:14 colinyu: thanks for your help jonrahkind
01:15 jonrafkind: np
01:18 colinyu: one last question, how can i make the function rptday repeat recursively until (> lo (daycompute m y))?
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01:19 colinyu: i've always used loops before, so recursion is pretty difficult for me
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01:20 mithos28: think about splitting the problem into parts, one part is solving it when it is a small problem
01:21 mithos28: one part is reducing the problem from a large problem to a smaller problem
01:21 mithos28: and the last part is using the result from a smaller problem, to generate the result from the larger problem
01:22 mithos28: in your case smaller, should be in the magnitude of your input numbers
01:23 colinyu: the way that i see it, which may be wrong
01:23 colinyu: is that i'm using the output from the most-bottom function, which is add1
01:24 colinyu: and then inputting that to a function a level higher, which is daynum
01:24 colinyu: and then finally taking that output, comparing it to another value, and repeating
01:25 colinyu: i just can't get my head around what to do
01:25 mithos28: how are you repeating?
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01:26 colinyu: by some sort of recursion
01:26 colinyu: the recursion part is what i can't figure out
01:26 colinyu: because the top-most function (rptday) takes two variables
01:27 colinyu: and doesn't use the outputted value as either of those variables
01:27 colinyu: so I don't know how to make it repeat
01:28 colinyu: i'm sorry if i'm going around in a circle here
01:28 mithos28: do you know what you want to call rptday with, but just not generate the code to do it?
01:29 colinyu: if i understand you correctly, yes i do know what i want to call it with, i just cant code it
01:30 mithos28: ok so can you turn the output of daynum into those two values you need?
01:32 colinyu: oh no, i can't do that, thats part of the problem i guess.
01:32 colinyu: hmm.
01:32 colinyu: actually...
01:32 mithos28: can you do it from the original two values?
01:34 colinyu: i think so
01:34 colinyu: indirectly i can i think
01:34 colinyu: as the variables m and y are passed down to daycompute, which serve as the variable i want to compare lo to
01:35 colinyu: daycompute outputs one number
01:35 colinyu: and i meant daycompute is a function that outputs a number that serves as the variable that i want to compare lo to
01:36 colinyu: and i want to make rptday repeat as many times as it takes lo to equal daycompute
01:36 colinyu: if that makes any sense
01:37 mithos28: sort of. If you think you have something I would try it out and see if it works
01:39 colinyu: ugh, my function doesnt work
01:39 colinyu: i'll try to explain it one more time and if its not good enough, i'll leave and stop bothering you
01:40 mithos28: Try and explain it in words what your function is supposed to do before trying to explain the code
01:41 colinyu: my function is supposed to output an image (created by daynum, which works) as many times as there are days in a month
01:41 colinyu: so for example, if there are 30 days in the month
01:41 colinyu: it will output 30 times
01:42 colinyu: the image has a number in it, starting from one
01:42 colinyu: each time, the number in the image will increase by 1, eventually stopping at 30
01:42 mithos28: how do you output an image?
01:42 colinyu: daycompute tells the function how many days there are in the month, using a predetermined formula
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01:43 colinyu: using the text function
01:43 colinyu: and the way i'm trying to code it is that:
01:44 colinyu: rptday will take the outputted value from daycompute
01:44 colinyu: which is either28, 29, 30, or 31
01:44 mithos28: how are you combining two images?
01:44 colinyu: compare it to a variable called lo
01:45 colinyu: i plan on makig all of the images first, and then using a beside funcion
01:45 colinyu: function*
01:46 colinyu: so daynum takes the number of (add1 lo), and puts that number into an image
01:46 mithos28: how are you going to call the beside function with all of your images
01:46 colinyu: i'm not too sure yet
01:47 colinyu: im guessing that i could call it after daynum makes each image
01:47 colinyu: so each image is beside another
01:47 mithos28: ok
01:48 colinyu: but the main problem im having
01:48 colinyu: is that i cant figure out how the make the function repeat as long as the variable lo is less than the outputted number of daycompute
01:49 colinyu: so basically i want to call the function to make a image with the number 1 in it
01:49 colinyu: then add 1 to lo
01:49 colinyu: and then recall the function to make another image with the number 2
01:49 colinyu: by the way i defined the variable lo to equal 1
01:50 mithos28: you cannot change variables in racket
01:50 mithos28: which is different from C
01:51 colinyu: so if i have (add1 lo) with lo initially being 1, lo will not be 2?
01:51 mithos28: in c you can do x = x + 1 and x + 1
01:51 mithos28: (add1 x) is the equivalent of the second
01:53 colinyu: ah, i see
01:53 colinyu: alright, i think i've bothered you enough
01:53 colinyu: thank you for all your help, i really appreciate it
01:53 mithos28: try to make a function which generate part of the calendar
01:53 mithos28: no problem
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03:27 Blkt: good morning everyone
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05:00 tim-brown: Blkt: morning
05:00 Blkt: hi there
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05:33 tim-brown: noelw: you said that "Events are where it's at"
05:33 noelw: I was trolling
05:33 tim-brown: is that the general synchronisable events? or are you talking about another mechanism?
05:34 noelw: Racket provides both
05:34 noelw: and events are sometimes more convenient to use
05:35 noelw: There is a framework called node.js
05:35 noelw: that is event based
05:35 noelw: and used by people who are very vocal in certain circles
05:35 noelw: and also seemingly didn't attend their OS course at Uni
05:36 noelw: I was teasing Tony
05:36 tim-brown: naughty!
05:36 tim-brown: sorry... but I see mentions of places/futures etc.
05:36 noelw: That's me
05:37 noelw: The basic thing is this: there is no one best model for parallelism
05:37 noelw: Racket provides many mechanisms for parallelism, so you can use the most appropriate one
05:37 tim-brown: all very groovy... so when i see a new innocuous sounding word like "events" mentioned, I wonder if I missed something in
05:37 noelw: (parallelism and concurrency, that is)
05:37 tim-brown: Rading Racket Documentation 101
05:38 noelw: Events = sync
05:38 noelw: Thread = thread
05:38 noelw: Futures = future
05:38 noelw: Places = errr.. don't recall
05:38 tim-brown: I'll look on maps.google.com for places
05:39 noelw: ;-P
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10:41 dingfeng: there are some opinions on the internet that racket scheme is not practical for larger-scale software. are they justified? what kind of additional risks does a software based on racket scheme face?
10:41 noelw: dingfeng: a shortage of developers, perhaps?
10:42 noelw: FWIW, we've used Racket in production
10:43 dingfeng: hm... was there any failing of Racket that you felt could have been prevented or ameliorated if you anticipated or prepared for it?
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10:44 dingfeng: or any particularly acute deficiency that made you wish for another language?
10:44 dingfeng: shortage of developers is something i could accept
10:45 noelw: dingfeng: developing libraries has been a pain at times
10:48 dingfeng: what kind of libraries does racket lack for conventional use?
10:48 dingfeng: i looked over the planet repo, and it seems quite complete if quality can be assumed
10:48 dingfeng: at least for generic uses. hm... minus web servers.
10:51 noelw: dingfeng: interfacing with databases
10:51 noelw: We have PostgreSQL, MySQL, and Mongo
10:51 noelw: this will do for a lot of ppl, but not everybody
10:51 noelw: HTTP client could be better
10:52 noelw: Planet does have a lot of stuff
10:52 noelw: but from time to time it lacks something
10:52 noelw: it can be annoying to lose 2-4 days implementing something that another language would just have
10:52 noelw: balance this against time saved in other areas
10:53 dingfeng: from what you say, there seems to be a lot of tradeoffs involved, which are only apparent only after the fact
10:53 dingfeng: what if you were to start a simlar project again today. would you still pick racket?
10:54 noelw: I think the tradeoffs are apparent before the fact...
10:55 noelw: Depends on the use case
10:55 noelw: I'm writing some stuff in Scala at the moment
10:55 noelw: as the JVM has higher performance
10:55 noelw: I'm doing data analysis in Racket, because it's easier to bind to C
10:55 noelw: plotting is simple, and I have existing libraries
10:56 noelw: So, it depends
10:56 noelw: But it's basically the tradeoff you make for using (almost) any non-mainstream language
10:56 dingfeng: always on libraries and availability of developers?
10:57 noelw: In addition to those, you might run into dark corners of the runtime that nobody has really stressed
10:58 noelw: Probably not an issue now for web apps
10:58 noelw: and Matthew Flatt &co fix bugs very quickly
10:58 dingfeng: not really i guess. my intentions are a web app with some machine learning on the back-end.
10:59 noelw: I love me some machine learning
10:59 noelw: Andrew Ng fills my headphones as I type
10:59 dingfeng: the online vids?
10:59 noelw: Yeah, ml-class. It's fairly basic stuff but
11:00 noelw: I haven't actually done much classification is the past
11:00 dingfeng: i'm taking it too. i like the interface
11:00 noelw: and it's simple enough I can keep up without full attention
11:00 noelw: Yes, it's really well done
11:01 dingfeng: yep.
11:02 dingfeng: anyway, i came from a java enterprise app background. can't imagine someone choosing jvm/java/scala over anything else.
11:02 bremner: how about clojure?
11:03 bremner: seems like a closer competitor to racket
11:03 noelw: The JVM is really fast.
11:03 noelw: It's great technology. It's just Java that sucks
11:03 dingfeng: jvm good. everything else in enterprise java, bad.
11:04 noelw: It has some limitations (tail calls, numerics are slower than C) but they aren't a big deal for many case
11:04 noelw: Absolutely agreed with that
11:04 dingfeng: i think clojure isn't as good for DSLs.
11:05 dingfeng: don't see many open source clojure DSLs popping up like in Racket or Haskell. i think it's a big disadvantage
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11:06 noelw: Clojure's macro system is old tech
11:06 noelw: as is it's module system
11:06 noelw: This is what put me off Clojure
11:07 dingfeng: i think it's a graft of an outdated lisp, with a proper set of immutable data structures
11:08 noelw: That's mostly my opinion, too.
11:10 dingfeng: although Clojure does get its marketing right. a lot of my friends in the scientific community heard about clojure and wants to try it.
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11:11 dingfeng: same for the more geeky enterprise apps engineers
11:11 dingfeng: i think clojure isn't a competitor to racket. it's a competitor to Java
11:12 bremner: I dunno. Lot's of the basic's transfer pretty easily from scheme/racket to clojure, so e.g. intro programming languages course using clojure is not out of the question.
11:13 dingfeng: how about debugging, stack traces, dependency and build management?
11:14 bremner: ah, maybe the environment is not as nice, that is a good point
11:15 dingfeng: my highest was a 1094 line stack trace (:
11:17 dingfeng: haskell is the one that sparked my concerns about using less mainstream languages. there are some huge deficiencies in its laziness, type inference, and module/namespace system that one wouldn't learn about working on small exercises.
11:23 eli: jonrafkind: It's not a syntax parameter...
11:24 eli: jonrafkind: I thought that it might be a good example for how you can toggle your choice between a runtime and a syntax parameter, but that's not related to make it easy to thread in.
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11:26 jonrafkind: oh right i forgot
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13:49 (topic) -: Racket -- http://racket-lang.org --  logs @ http://racket-lang.org/irc-logs
13:49 (names) -: gabot MayDaniel mithos28__ mye 45PAAGJGU mithos28 dnolen wishbone4 sstrickl dingfeng jonrafkind realitygrill masm haruki_zaemon mceier noelw Demosthenes mario-goulart eli hyko samth acarrico surrounder tonyg tewk Nanakhiel karswell Gertm mattmight brainproxy sethalves tomku petey snorble em s_chng wtetzner cipher bfulgham rgrinberg danking adzuci gf3 asumu zerokarmaleft ernestas rudybot offby1 zakwilson karljoh elliottcable cky ohwow jrslepak stamourv
13:49 (names) -: @ChanServ clklein ozzloy sir_lewk rapacity jamessan GeneralMaximus abbe shachaf si14 tauntaun bremner _p4bl0
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14:33 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/-Juuvw
14:33 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Updates Redex history for v5.2 - Casey Klein
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15:55 (part) haruki_zaemon: "Laterz"
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16:48 bon-bon: In Chapter 2 we used a function called appearances that returns the number of times its first argument appears as a member of its second argument. Implement appearances.
16:48 bon-bon: does anyone know hw to do it?
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17:11 bremner: recursion?
17:13 bremner: oh, gone.
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18:02 offby1: kids these days
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18:31 epw: hello, everyone!
18:39 epw: I have a question about using namespaces and (load). I think I'm very close to the answer, but I haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet. I only switched from Lisp to Racket recently.
18:42 epw: roughly, I'm trying to do what they talk about here with the DSL but having trouble with it: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/mk-namespace.html#(part._.Creating_and_.Installing_.Namespaces)
18:42 epw: If anyone happens to have time to look at it, I'd really appreciate it and can explain my particular problem more.
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19:15 epw: be back soon, switching computers
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21:04 asumu: epw: I can take a look in about 20 mins if noone else does by then.
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21:26 asumu: epw: What problems were you having with namespaces?
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22:08 epw: aw, I may be bad at timing. asumu, are you still there?
22:15 asumu: epw: Yep
22:17 epw: hooray!
22:18 epw: So, I'm trying to make a domain-specific language, and want to be as secure as possible about it
22:18 epw: so that it can be used in as many potential applications as possible
22:19 epw: going by the "manipulating namespaces" page in the guide, this isn't too weird an idea
22:19 (part) haruki_zaemon: "Laterz"
22:19 epw: and they have this piece of code specifically for a DSL
22:19 epw: (define (run-dsl file)
22:19 epw: (parameterize ([current-namespace (make-base-empty-namespace)])
22:19 epw: (namespace-require 'my-dsl)
22:19 epw: (load file)))
22:19 asumu: Yep, I see the example.
22:20 asumu: Now one question is, do you need the functionality that namespaces provide for your DSL?
22:21 epw: I think I do, but it's possible that I'm misinterpreting them
22:21 asumu: You could also write your DSL as a #lang language that your user writes the program in.
22:21 epw: What would the main differences be? The guide wasn't entirely clear to me
22:21 asumu: Oh okay, so you might want to run potentially hostile code provided by someone else?
22:21 epw: Yes
22:22 epw: ideally, there will be about ten functions which can be called
22:22 asumu: Okay. Does the example not work for you?
22:22 epw: and so the person can just submit a file which calls them in whatever order and with whatever arguments
22:22 epw: It does not
22:22 epw: when the file I am opening is "commands.rkt" I get
22:22 epw: commands.rkt:1:0: compile: unbound identifier (and no #%app syntax transformer is bound) at: #%top-interaction in: (#%top-interaction require racket/base)
22:23 epw: If I make the first line inside the parameterize be (namespace-require racket/base) then it works
22:23 epw: but then I have file I/O functions and the like
22:23 epw: so it's not safe
22:23 asumu: Ah okay, you are trying to run this in a REPL?
22:24 asumu: (or in an interactions area in DrRacket)
22:24 epw: well, I'm actually trying to write a library so that I can run it from a REPL, command line, web server, and any other interface I come up with
22:25 asumu: The REPL requires that you implement #%top-interaction, which allows languages to hook into the REPL environment.
22:25 epw: That error was generated from executing it as a #! script in bash
22:25 asumu: You can provide #%top-interaction from racket/base from commands.rkt without providing other things.
22:25 epw: ohhhhhh
22:25 epw: that makes a ton of sense
22:25 epw: and makes the error make sense
22:25 asumu: Alternatively, you can provide your own #%top-interaction that does what you want.
22:27 asumu: (oh, also it is required for "load" which is why you saw the issue from bash, I think)
22:27 epw: what could I do with it? Looking it up in the reference, it looks like it normally just passes on the form to be evaluated?
22:27 asumu: I believe Typed Racket uses it, for example, to print out the type of the expression you have.
22:28 epw: aha, I see
22:28 epw: ah, the sample works now!
22:28 epw: I added (provide #%top-interaction #%app)
22:28 epw: to my DSL
22:29 asumu: :)
22:30 epw: thank you very much. Looks like I actually need to read through the main language reference to do the more advanced things like this
22:30 epw: I just hadn't thought to search it for "#%top-interaction"
22:32 asumu: If you haven't seen it, dyoo's article on Brainfudge might illuminate some things: http://hashcollision.org/brainfudge/
22:32 asumu: He doesn't talk about #%top-interaction, but does mention #%module-begin and related language hooks.
22:33 epw: I had not seen that, and it looks quite useful. Thank you again
22:47 epw: alright, time for me to go. Thanks again, asumu! A lot of the programs I plan to write include DSLs, so this was an important step for me
22:47 epw: see you all some other time
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