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06:20 MightyFoo: in rackunit, why are there "check-<x>" functions and "test-<x>" functions? e.g. test-equal? and check-equal?
06:20 MightyFoo: aside from the test-name being moved from the end to the beginning of the arguments list
06:21 MightyFoo: ooh... sorry, just read to the bottom of 3.3.1.1 of rackunit documentation
06:23 noelw: yeah, legacy
06:24 noelw: don't use the shortcuts
06:24 noelw: you'll make me cry
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06:35 MightyFoo: is the "Module Browser" designed to ignore "...-test.rkt" modules?
06:58 noelw: don't think so
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07:30 MightyFoo: i've got a scribble document that lp-includes <x>.rkt and <x>-test.rkt files -- module browser only shows <x>.rkt files
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12:24 ysangkok: hi guys
12:24 ysangkok: i'm trying to access v053 docs, but i get 403 Forbidden
12:25 jonrafkind: v053??? like from 15 years ago?
12:25 ysangkok: yes
12:25 jonrafkind: where are you looking
12:25 ysangkok: http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/053/
12:26 ysangkok: 103p1 is working
12:26 jonrafkind: eli, can you make it work?
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13:17 ysangkok: jonrafkind: should i come back later to remind you, maybe when eli wakes up?
13:17 jonrafkind: sure
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13:17 ysangkok: ok bye then
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14:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/ZVRnEw
14:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix a race (suggested by drdr test results) - Robby Findler
14:06 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix the way that the set of identifiers to rename is calculated so that - Robby Findler
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14:43 Eren: I couldn't find a way to compose two functions
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14:43 Eren: in the paper "Why Functional Programming Matters" by John Hughes
14:43 Eren: it's one as (first . g) 10
14:44 Eren: it's translated as (first (g 10))
14:46 jonrafkind: rudybot: ((compose (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) (lambda (y) (* y 2))) 4)
14:46 rudybot: jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready
14:46 rudybot: jonrafkind: ; Value: 9
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15:01 eli: jonrafkind: there are no docs for 53.
15:01 jonrafkind: theres a link for it
15:02 jonrafkind: so the link should be erased?
15:05 eli: The link is on plt-scheme.org.
15:07 jonrafkind: well apparently people are trying to access it. ill leave it up to you to decide if you care about those people
15:09 eli: plt-scheme.org is frozen, and changes have to be done manually.
15:09 eli: And supporting, uh, v53 downloads, is not really high on the priority queue.
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15:24 Blkt: good evening everyone
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15:39 beginnerman: hey guys, how do i set up racket on ubuntu 11.04
15:39 beginnerman: i am trying to learn to program and people suggested i read SCIP which uses scheme
15:40 ChibaPet: SICP - Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
15:41 jonrafkind: beginnerman, there is a ppa or you can just download the installer
15:41 beginnerman: ChibaPet, oh yes sorry
15:41 jonrafkind: here is instructions to installing the ppa: http://groups.google.com/group/plt-scheme/browse_thread/thread/2fe94a8530fa2875/f98f25cc72b19c19?pli=1
15:41 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/62hpx5g
15:42 jonrafkind: or download the installer http://racket-lang.org/download/
15:43 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe
15:44 beginnerman: thanks
15:46 bremner: aren't there official ubuntu packages?
15:47 ChibaPet: It'll be old.
15:48 ChibaPet: Probably.
15:51 jonrafkind: the official ubuntu packages are for plt-scheme still
15:51 jonrafkind: there are some 5.x packages for racket but only in debian unstable which ubuntu will pull eventually
15:51 jonrafkind: this is why i created the ppa, because it takes too long to go from debian unstable to ubuntu
15:51 jonrafkind: also the ppa is generally as up to date as the other releases (made within a day of the release)
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15:52 bremner: shrug
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16:07 bremner: perhaps some Ubuntu person should request syncs more often
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16:10 bremner: ppas are good, but having newer versions out of the box would also be good
16:12 jonrafkind: ill be sure to pray extra hard tonight so ubuntu gets upgraded
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16:17 bremner: i think it has something to do with launchpad, rather than prayer
16:18 jonrafkind: afaik launchpad is only related to ppa's
16:19 bremner: i mean, someone has to care enough to file a request, and i guess that request would be on launchpad
16:25 samth: jonrafkind, launchpad is their general bug tracking system
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16:56 tauntaun: Any word on when the RacketCon videos might be available?
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17:08 jonrafkind: samth, ?
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17:10 kwamz: hello?
17:10 jonrafkind: sup
17:10 kwamz: Hey are you good with racket?
17:10 jonrafkind: samth, btw i was referring to tauntaun's question, not launchpad there
17:10 jonrafkind: kwamz, obviously you have a question about racket so just ask it
17:11 kwamz: I need some help making a program that will show a ball moving one direction then change directions when an arrow key is pressed
17:12 kwamz: I've got the code down for the actual button press, but the direction change is messing me up
17:12 jonrafkind: you could have a direction variable and do (set! direction (- direction))
17:12 kwamz: I have to do this program in BSL
17:13 stamourv: kwamz: Don't use `set!'. It's usually a bad idea.
17:13 stamourv: kwamz: What step of the design recipe are you at?
17:13 jonrafkind: imo set! is fine
17:14 kwamz: Im at the actual coding part. I have the data representations and contracts/templates written
17:14 stamourv: jonrafkind: It sometimes is what you want, but much less often than one would think.
17:14 stamourv: That, and suggesting it to beginners is not a good idea.
17:15 stamourv: kwamz: So what's the data definition for your World?
17:15 stamourv: (Assuming you're doing this with Big-Bang.)
17:15 kwamz: yep
17:15 kwamz: I have two positive integers representing the current position of the ball
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17:16 stamourv: kwamz: Is that enough?
17:16 stamourv: More importantly, can you tell the direction the ball is going using only that?
17:16 kwamz: That's what the prompt for the exercise said.
17:17 kwamz: and that's the problem i have been having
17:17 stamourv: You mean that's the world definition it gave you?
17:17 kwamz: i tried using a cond in the ball-next function to differentiate the direction, but the program blows up
17:17 kwamz: too many variables or something
17:18 stamourv: If that's the definition that was given for you, I assume it was for the first part of the exercise, where the ball only moved in one direction, right?
17:18 kwamz: Sort of...
17:18 stamourv: What do you mean?
17:19 kwamz: It was split up into several questions
17:19 stamourv: Right.
17:19 kwamz: the first was develop a data representation for the current location of the ball with two positive integers
17:19 stamourv: So that world definition was appropriate at that point.
17:20 kwamz: the second was develop a data representation for the velocity and speed of the ball (10 units/tick)
17:20 stamourv: But, just like in real-world programming, requirements sometimes change, and you need to adapt your data definitions.
17:20 kwamz: that's where i mess up
17:20 stamourv: A definition that was perfectly fine for the old requirements (ball moving in a single direction) may not be enough for the new ones (ball moving in two directions).
17:21 stamourv: So let's think about the problem. What do you think is missing from your data definition.
17:21 kwamz: Hmmm so how should i go about this?
17:21 stamourv: As usual, by following the design recipe.
17:21 kwamz: I'm guessing the velocity is missing from my original world definition
17:21 stamourv: If we follow it carefully, we'll get the answer.
17:21 stamourv: That sounds like an idea worth exploring.
17:21 kwamz: Okay so first I describe my data
17:22 stamourv: Exactly!
17:22 kwamz: I have two numbers (positive integers) representing my location, a value for my speed and a direction
17:22 kwamz: How do i describe the direction in racket>
17:23 kwamz: ?*
17:23 stamourv: There are multiple ways you can do it.
17:23 kwamz: As an enumeration?
17:23 stamourv: You can "store" it in the sign of the velocity.
17:23 stamourv: Or you could have an enumerations.
17:23 kwamz: store it?
17:23 stamourv: s/enumerations/enumeration/
17:24 stamourv: Well, have the velocity be positive if going right, negative if going left, something like that.
17:24 stamourv: But an enumeration is perfectly good too.
17:24 kwamz: Okay
17:24 stamourv: Choose whichever you're more comfortable with. This is your program.
17:25 kwamz: what is the s/enumerations/enumeration you typed above?
17:25 kwamz: The other problem is, im not just going left and right, i have to go up and down too
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17:25 stamourv: Oh, that's sed. It basically means a search and replace. I made a typo in the previous line, and wanted to "correct" it.
17:25 kwamz: oh ok haha
17:25 stamourv: Then an enumeration in more flexible.
17:26 stamourv: s/in/is/
17:26 stamourv: I fail at typing today.
17:26 kwamz: Umm I have to get going to cross country practice, so is there any way you could give me a little nudge in the right direction? and don't worry about the typing, you're helping me a lot
17:27 stamourv: Try to extend your world definition with the enumeration, then follow the recipe, and update your functions to use the new world definition.
17:28 stamourv: When you do hit the part where you do the actual movement, it should be straightforward, since it will only be a small portion of the program that will need to change.
17:28 stamourv: Anyway, I hve to go myself, so good luck!
17:28 kwamz: Can the world definition include a make-posn and a direction?
17:29 stamourv: Sure, that works.
17:29 kwamz: Okay, thanks a ton!
17:29 stamourv: NO problem!
17:29 kwamz: bye
17:29 stamourv: s/NO/No/, I'm not shouting
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18:01 yoklov1: Do you guys think that SICP is too difficult to be useful material for a introductory computer science course?
18:01 tauntaun: No.
18:01 tauntaun: I use it to teach CS to middle-school kids.
18:01 tauntaun: (...though not systematically.)
18:02 yoklov1: I'm a TA this year for a course that's using it, and I don't know if I feel like any of the kids ``get it''
18:02 yoklov1: and I know when I took this course I thought the book was totally incomprehensible
18:03 yoklov1: though i believed if i could understand it, that it had the secrets of being an incredible programmer
18:03 yoklov1: I still think that :p
18:03 yoklov1: But really, you don't think it's too hard?
18:03 yoklov1: even for middle school?
18:03 tauntaun: I don't use it as a cover-to-cover text, only as a resource.  But my kids to read some of its passages and understand.
18:04 tauntaun: s/to/do
18:05 yoklov1: I mean, cover to cover would be unreasonable for introductory material, the first 3 chapters are all you can really hope for in the best case.
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18:06 yoklov1: You don't think that those passages could be better explained though?  SICP is usually rather terse, and whenever i've found it really helpful it's been like, a code example
18:10 tauntaun: I don't think it's too terse; if anything, the writing is elegant and happily free of the turgid prose that bloats so many of today's textbooks.
18:10 tauntaun: (You don't want to get me started on textbooks.)
18:14 yoklov1: Well, yeah
18:15 yoklov1: textbooks can be really terrible
18:17 yoklov1: But there are other scheme books, HTDP for instance, seems to be a more gentle introduction, though i've never read more than a small portion of it.
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18:26 samth: yoklov1, htdp was designed to address these kinds of weaknesses in sicp
18:27 yoklov1: that makes sense
18:27 samth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_and_Interpretation_of_the_Computer_Science_Curriculum
18:27 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3uk7fm6
18:27 samth: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/jfp2004-fffk.pdf
18:40 yoklov1: i definitely agree with page 9: ``sicp’s second major problem concerns its selection of examples and exercises. All of these use complex domain knowledge''
18:41 yoklov1: The kids in my lab are all first semester freshmen and don't even know calculus yet, so a lot of the math is beyond them
18:41 yoklov1: or at least more than they've seen
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19:03 samth: yoklov1, check out picturing programs: http://picturingprograms.com/
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19:10 yoklov1: That's pretty cool, but I think it's too far in the other direction
19:10 yoklov1: at least, unless it's for non-majors, which the philosophy seems to say now that i look
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21:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/oVb7xw
21:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `scribble -h' output - Matthew Flatt
21:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add -J/--wm-class argument to set the WM_CLASS class on Unix - Matthew Flatt
21:05 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add 'wmclass/".wmclass" aux executable/launcher configuration - Matthew Flatt
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21:09 kwamz: stamourv?
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23:30 roastbird: hiii
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