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00:34 offby1: I think you begin it with #!/usr/bin/env gracket
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04:27 lewis1711: https://gist.github.com/1156331 very weird error for a very trivial program. Clues?
04:28 lewis1711: (also, if anyone knows a paste site with better racket syntax than that, that'd be great :D))
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04:55 asumu: em: you can compile it to an executable with raco
04:56 asumu: Oh my, I'm not used to being on the West Coast. Replying 5 hours late.
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04:59 asumu: lewis1711: I think the problem is you're using a typed region inside of Typed Racket.
04:59 asumu: If you change it to #lang racket and (require typed/racket) instead it works.
05:00 asumu: Though that is an unhelpful error message either way.
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05:32 lewis1711: asumu: that was what I tried at first (#lang racket), but that got me " expand: unbound identifier in module in: with-type"
05:32 lewis1711: what version are you using? I'm on 5.1.3
05:32 lewis1711: oh, the require bit
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05:35 lewis1711: hmmm, I'd like typed racket a lot better if it was built into regular racket, and it'd default to dynamic typing like SBCL.
05:36 asumu: lewis1711: That's not really the purpose of Typed Racket though.
05:36 asumu: The idea of TR is that you can convert an untyped program module-by-module.
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05:38 asumu: You could have finer granularity, but at the cost of far more contract checks because TR protects typed code.
05:38 lewis1711: yeah. I guess once it supports more of racket I'll use it more. the big thing missing for me right now is the FFI.
05:39 asumu: lewis1711: You can just leave the FFI binding part untyped and import it appropriately into TR.
05:39 asumu: (with require/typed)
05:41 lewis1711: I don't think that would work - since you'd need the FFI types themselves, which you can't access from typed/racket
05:41 lewis1711: also in general, random functions popup that TR doesn't have.
05:41 lewis1711: I'll try out some stuff with require/typed though
05:42 asumu: Well, I mean you can build a "racketized" library over bindings imported from the FFI. With the appropriate marshalling.
05:42 asumu: Then import that into the typed world.
05:43 asumu: This kind of thing would be a nice thing to have examples of.
05:43 asumu: (as dyoo mentioned on the mailing list)
05:44 asumu: lewis1711: Also, with-type is basically letting you use TR in arbitrary untyped code.
05:44 asumu: Though yes, you still need to require typed racket.
05:45 asumu: Okay I'm off to sleep. Late even on the West Coast now.
05:46 lewis1711: yeah but then I can't pass untyped stuff into that type code, so it becomes a big mess
05:46 lewis1711: talk later then
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07:21 milos3452: hi. i'm interested in making a windows executables from small lisp programs.
07:21 milos3452: I tried this and the file was 6 megabytes in size. the program had 3 lines.
07:23 milos3452: Can this be smaller?
07:24 lewis1711: milos3452: I think it bundles in the racket vm. so probably not. but a 3000 line program would probably be about the same size.
07:25 milos3452: yeah, I heard that.
07:26 lewis1711: if it's really a deal breaker you could try something like gambit scheme that compiles down to C
07:26 lewis1711: though maybe there's a racket solution, not sure
07:28 lewis1711: is 6mb really a deal breaker? that's only like 4 floppy disks ;)
07:29 milos3452: gambit, I'll look it up, thanks. I'm just into making small beginners programs, but would like to share them with windows users.
07:34 noelw: lewis1711: if you don't use parametric polymorphism you can call typed code from untyped code
07:41 lewis1711: noelw: yeah I thought about doing that, dynamic racket seems to treat typed racket code as just having contracts
07:42 noelw: yes
07:42 noelw: that's how it's implemented -- contracts at module boundaries enforce the types
07:42 noelw: typed code called typed code doesn't go through the contract
07:43 noelw: but untyped code has to
07:43 lewis1711: it'd be cool if the contract system in mainline scheme did some type stuff.
07:43 lewis1711: that's probably not feasible for whatever reason, by i always wondered if that could be don
07:43 lewis1711: e
07:43 noelw: there is work on "gradual typing"
07:44 lewis1711: in racket? that's good to hear
07:44 noelw: that might be what you want. not something i know much about.
07:44 noelw: I don't think in Racket.
07:44 lewis1711: oh
07:44 noelw: I think the Javascript guys were looking at it (Dave Herman did his PhD at NEU)
07:44 lewis1711: I guess I'll just wait for typed racket to cover more things then. it seems like it's an area they're focusing on
07:45 lewis1711: looking it up now
07:45 noelw: Well if you have specific things you want convered -- like some primitives are not available -- that can be done very easily
07:45 lewis1711: can it? is there a guide?
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07:46 lewis1711: I just run into random stuff - the last one I think was "sequence->list" can't be used in TR
07:46 noelw: No guide I know of, but the source is fairly easy to read
07:46 noelw: sequence is hard to type in Typed Racket at the moment 'cause it relies on "ad-hoc polymorphism" which TR doesn't handle
07:47 noelw: By the source I mean the file where all the primitives are given types
07:47 lewis1711: ah
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07:47 noelw: It's a few files and quite simple
07:47 noelw: Or just ask on the mailing list
07:48 lewis1711: I signed up to it again today, since i figured out how to filter newsgroup mail sanely :D
07:50 lewis1711: reading about gradual typing
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08:07 lewis1711: noelw: that's an interesting system - cool that it's an active area of research
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08:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/ojaUJC
08:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix compiler handling of top-/module-level constants - Matthew Flatt
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09:36 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix optimizer bug - Matthew Flatt
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11:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/ovMCR3
11:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix bugs in the file locking protocol for planet packages - Robby Findler
11:02 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Rackety (indentation, let->define, mzscheme->racket/base, module -> #lang) - Robby Findler
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11:14 samth: noelw: gradual typing is basically the same thing as typed racket
11:15 noelw: oh, ok
11:15 samth: and i think lewis1711 was pretty confused about what he wants
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11:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 5 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/p8jjk1
11:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Adding clarifying comments to rep-utils.rkt - James Ian Johnson
11:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Fixed a comment inconsistency about double quotation. - James Ian Johnson
11:37 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Removed e from fold-pat attributes. - James Ian Johnson
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12:10 tauntaun: problems with racket-lang.org?
12:14 samth: tauntaun: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/racket-lang.org
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12:58 asumu: That's weird, because I'm having trouble accessing docs.racket-lang.org too.
12:58 asumu: But that website says it's just me.
12:59 jonrafkind: is up for me
12:59 samth: asumu: i'm having transient failures with some things (editing github gists for example, and firefox syncing)
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13:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/mRJXNf
13:31 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] I believe this fixes PR12117. The teaching languages rely on syntax/struct. (I have run the teaching language tests, but do not other uses of syntax/struct.) It appears that syntax/struct has been incorrectly creating this information for some time. The problem is that it would end the static info with a #f if the selectors or setters were omitted, but reading the documentation implies that there should be a final #f in eit
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14:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/mVrNBp
14:26 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] Mark place-chan-rand as random for DrDr. - Sam Tobin-Hochstadt
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14:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/nNc562
14:45 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust timeout - Robby Findler
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15:21 jonrafkind: opinions on this syntax? function(x){ x + 1 } map 1 :: 2 :: 3 :: null;
15:22 jonrafkind: maybe there should be a different operator for binary map
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15:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 7 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/qUCPf7
15:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix optimizer test - Matthew Flatt
15:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] change bad code to an assertion that's never needed - Matthew Flatt
15:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `place-break' on a terminated place - Matthew Flatt
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15:42 jonrafkind: I wonder if the quit bot stuck around for a few minutes in case a new push happened, or its logic was just slow
15:46 asumu: jonrafkind: map is meant to be a binary operator there?
15:46 jonrafkind: yea
15:46 asumu: How does the precedence work here?
15:46 jonrafkind: map has lower precedence than ::
15:47 samth: jonrafkind: i'm not a fan -- list comprehensions are better
15:47 asumu: I see. So it has special treatment, or can I use any identifier?
15:47 jonrafkind: binary operators are special
15:47 asumu: I think that could be confusing. I like how Haskell requires `` to make it obvious it's being used infix.
15:48 jonrafkind: thats becuase you can use functions either as prefix or infix, but here you have no choice
15:48 jonrafkind: although I guess I could support the `` thing
15:48 jonrafkind: i dont really like that syntax..
15:49 samth: better to have something general than something specific to just map
15:49 jonrafkind: what about +
15:49 asumu: I'm not sure I would ever use map infix though, as opposed to map(add1, 1 :: 2 :: 3 :: null).
15:50 jonrafkind: im expanding your horizons!
15:50 samth: like i said, the better custom notation for list transformation is list comprehension
15:50 jonrafkind: in ruby its nice to do [1, 2, 3].map({|x| x + 1), here the function and list are just reversed
15:50 jonrafkind: samth, i have for
15:50 jonrafkind: but thats orthogonal to the question at hand
15:51 samth: no, it's not orthogonal at all
15:51 jonrafkind: it is if you want to use map
15:51 samth: [x+1 | x <- 1 :: 2 :: 3 :: null]
15:51 samth: or even better: [x+1 | x <- [1,2,3]]
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15:51 samth: which will work in JS soon
15:52 jonrafkind: i could support that if I remove | as an operator, I dont like |> though
15:53 jonrafkind: > looks ok, but i may need to use <> as enclosers
15:53 asumu: jonrafkind: The . makes the separation clear for me, whereas juxtaposition does not.
15:54 jonrafkind: pure juxtaposition would leave out the map
15:54 asumu: (and yea, comprehensions are nice)
15:54 samth: then do some other syntax for comprehensions
15:54 samth: all i'm saying is that comprehensions are the correct custom map syntax -- not an infix map operator
15:54 jonrafkind: psh.. correct..
15:54 samth: ok, best that we know of
15:55 jonrafkind: s/we/I
15:55 samth: do you know of any other better ones?
15:55 asumu: It's also the syntax covered in high school/college math.
15:55 samth: and found in other programming languages
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15:56 jonrafkind: you are suggesting no one should use map ever, thats all im arguing against
15:57 samth: no, i'm saying that map is great as a function -- if you want syntactic support for doing map-like things, then use a comprehension
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15:58 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix for subprocess management (when places are enabled) - Matthew Flatt
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15:58 samth: also, jonrafkind, i don't understand the design philosophy at work here
15:58 samth: are you trying to come up with something similar to existing languages, or trying to innovate in terms of syntax?
15:58 jonrafkind: make the common case easy
15:59 jonrafkind: sometimes i just throw syntaxes at a wall and see what sticks
15:59 jonrafkind: this is one of those times
15:59 samth: right, but as a general philosophy, matthew seemed to suggest at racketcon that we're trying to build a syntax like what people know
16:00 samth: but infix map is not like that at all
16:00 jonrafkind: i am the oath breaker!
16:00 samth: but if you aren't trying to be similar to existing syntaxes, i have lots of other suggestions
16:00 jonrafkind: ok, suggest away
16:00 samth: starting with losing the {} and ;
16:01 jonrafkind: actually i can get rid of ; in most places
16:01 jonrafkind: so you dont like {} for blocks of code?
16:02 jonrafkind: i could possibly convert tabs/indentation into blocks of code I guess
16:04 samth: yes, i would like that -- thought not tabs (spaces!)
16:04 jonrafkind: yar
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16:56 Guest43988: hi all..i have been attempting ot use ryanc/db:1:3 for mysql and other database stuff..i have sqlite3 connections/ quesriues working fine but could not connect to mysql through its socks file
16:56 Guest43988: sorry i meant "sock" file
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17:00 rekahsoft: oops..srry nick wrong :S
17:22 jonrafkind: samth, [x + 2, x <- [1, 2, 3]]
17:22 jonrafkind: since i already use , as a delimeter it was easy
17:23 samth: jonrafkind: ugh
17:23 jonrafkind: what its just , vs |
17:23 samth: what about: [x + y, x <- [1, 2, 3], y <- [4, 5, 6]] ?
17:23 samth: hard to find the delimiter
17:24 samth: i'd prefer || or :: or : or basically anything other than ,
17:24 jonrafkind: ok i can use :
17:24 samth: unless you're using : for contracts/types
17:25 jonrafkind: nah, ill have to figure something else out for those
17:25 ohwow_: Why can't you just use '|'
17:25 ohwow_: sorry for interrupting
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17:26 jonrafkind: i already used | as an operator
17:26 jonrafkind: i could get rid of it, but i sort of like it
17:27 jonrafkind: [x + y: x <- [1, 2, 3], y <- [5, 6, 7]] produced '(6 8 10). yay
17:40 samth: yay
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18:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/pBbsuq
18:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `make-lock-file-name'; add `path-element?' - Matthew Flatt
18:04 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `call-with-file-lock/timeout' example - Matthew Flatt
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18:56 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] another subprocess fix like d7a996ee0bf393b985 - Matthew Flatt
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19:03 shaggy-: how can I convert a C pointer to a Racket string?
19:03 samth: the `_string' type in the FFI
19:03 samth: provided that it's a `char *', that is
19:03 shaggy-: I already have a pointer though
19:04 samth: i don't understand
19:04 shaggy-: C functions accepts a pointer and then fills it with characters
19:04 samth: what's the type of the c function?
19:04 shaggy-: so I have a pointer pointing to C string and I have to convert it to racket string
19:04 samth: where do you have this pointer?
19:05 shaggy-: I am doing this (perhaps there's a better way). (let* ([size 100] [buf (malloc size)]) (c-function buf size)
19:05 samth: you want an out parameter -- it'll do some of this for you
19:06 samth: see http://docs.racket-lang.org/foreign/String_Types.html and http://docs.racket-lang.org/foreign/foreign_procedures.html#%28form._%28%28lib._ffi/unsafe..rkt%29.__ptr%29%29
19:06 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3ga8y9e
19:06 shaggy-: ah thanks, let me try
19:07 (nick) samth -> samth_away
19:07 samth_away: gotta run, ask on the users mailing list or stack overflow if you don't find someone here
19:15 shaggy-: I see no way to specify size of the char array in (_ptr o ..)
19:17 jonrafkind: it should be null terminated
19:17 jonrafkind: such is the definition of a string in C
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19:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 6 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/oAaZdz
19:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] don't stop parsing the current expression after invoking a macro. - Jon Rafkind
19:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add 'exit-code as an available symbol to the status procedure returned by process - Jon Rafkind
19:19 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] move test file. minor cleanups to the parsing code - Jon Rafkind
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19:20 shaggy-: function doesn't accept a C string, it produces a string
19:21 shaggy-: it doesn't read from the buffer but writes to it
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19:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/qEVRmb
19:22 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] [honu] accidentally added these files, so removing them - Jon Rafkind
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19:23 jonrafkind: shaggy-, so (_ptr o _char) no/
19:23 jonrafkind: ?
19:23 shaggy-: won't that allocate a single byte?
19:24 jonrafkind: wait so does the c function accept a char* as an argument and writes to it?
19:24 shaggy-: yes, char * and size
19:25 jonrafkind: i dont know of a better solution than to call (malloc ...)
19:25 shaggy-: that's fine I don't mind calling malloc, but  I don't know how to get racket string out of a pointer
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21:23 WarWeasle: Hello, any windows users available for assistance?
21:27 WarWeasle: I just want to compile a GUI app without the debug console popping up. Can anyone do this?
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21:38 eli: WarWeasle: Same as before, use the --gui thing.
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21:41 WarWeasle: eli: I tried it. Still get the popups. :(
21:42 eli: Um, popup?  I thought you got the dos box.  Which popup?
21:43 WarWeasle: eli: I meant a dox window which pops up then spewes some data about my widgets and I have to use ctrl-c to make it go away.
21:45 WarWeasle: I did the : raco --gui gui.rkt
21:46 eli: WarWeasle: Do you mean that you're printing stuff out?
21:46 WarWeasle: eli: Yes.
21:47 eli: So, where do you expect that text to go to?
21:48 WarWeasle: I'm not using any print commands. Is there a flag I set to make racket/gui not print anything?
21:49 eli: It's not clear to me what gets printed.  The `racket/gui' library does not print anything by itself.
21:49 eli: Can you paste an example of stuff that is getting printed?
21:52 WarWeasle: I'll have to wait until Monday. It's my work machine and I use Linux at home.
21:52 WarWeasle: I'm sure it's something stupid because all the examples run fine.
21:53 WarWeasle: Thanks again for you help, eli.
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21:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/rqK4-A
21:55 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix `path-element?' collision - Matthew Flatt
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21:57 eli: WarWeasle: You can run the same code on linux too.
21:58 eli: Any output that you'll see on the console where you start the application would cause a dos box popup -- so you should write the application so that no such output is produced.
22:00 WarWeasle: eli: I don't get the same result. Every app in Unix creates an output stream. X hides it. Windows will pop up a dos window if not in a winmain.
22:01 eli: WarWeasle: X doesn't really hide it.
22:01 eli: The thing is that every application on X is getting *some* stdin/out.
22:01 eli: If you start something from the gnome panel, for example, its output will go to some log file where gnome-session started.
22:01 WarWeasle: eli: Right, it just doesn't pop open a window to annoy me.
22:01 eli: But on Windows, there is really no stdin/out for gui applications.
22:02 eli: Thefore gracket must create them when needed, and that's what you see.
22:02 eli: (Probably.)
22:02 eli: So what I'm suggesting now is that you run the *same* code, from a linux terminal,
22:02 eli: then see if there's any output that appears.
22:02 eli: If there is any -- then that output would lead to the dos box appearing when running on windows.
22:03 eli: But in that case, you'll be able to paste that output somewhere so I can figure out where it's coming from.
22:03 eli: (Given that your code isn't showing anything explicitly.)
22:04 WarWeasle: I'll have to do that tomorrow as I am on my wife's machine. I'm just using the code from the gui examples, here: http://docs.racket-lang.org/gui/windowing-overview.html
22:05 WarWeasle: Even the first example does it.
22:07 WarWeasle: Maybe raco won't delete the exe automaticlly?
22:07 eli: WarWeasle: Do you mean the *first* example that just shows a frame, or the second one?
22:08 eli: If it's the second, then I think that I have a guess about what went wrong for you.
22:08 WarWeasle: That's what I've been using, yes. What could it be?
22:09 eli: WarWeasle: So it's the second one, right?
22:09 eli: And the output that you see looks like this: (object:button% ...)
22:09 eli: right?
22:09 WarWeasle: YES
22:09 WarWeasle: :)
22:10 eli: WarWeasle: OK, then.
22:10 eli: Here's the problem:
22:10 eli: In the usual Racket languages, there is an implicit `print' around any toplevel expression that returns a value other than `void'.
22:11 eli: This makes it possible to treat something like (+ 1 2) as a program (which prints just "3" in this case).
22:11 eli: And in a gui application you get the same behavior.
22:11 WarWeasle: Ahhh. That makes sense. How do you remove it?
22:11 eli: Now the problem is in that (new button% [parent frame] ...stufff...)
22:11 eli: The thing is that this is one of these weird functions --
22:12 eli: a function that is called both to perform a side-effect (create a gui widget on the window) and to return a value (the button object).
22:12 eli: But in this case there is obviously no use for the returned value.
22:13 eli: Still one way to get rid of it, is to `define' something to it, even if the value is unused.
22:13 eli: For example, just changing it to (define btn (new button% ...blah...)) should work.
22:13 eli: Alternatively, you can send the resulting value to `void' -- which is a function that can consume any argument(s), and always returns a single #<void> value.
22:14 eli: To do that, you'd use (void (new button% ...blah...))
22:14 eli: And, of course, you should do that for any such global value.
22:14 eli: Sorry, any such toplevel expression.
22:14 WarWeasle: Thank you! This is great, I can use this at work to make my life MUCH simpler.
22:14 eli: (Meanwhile, this is of course a problem in the docs.)
22:17 WarWeasle: Thank you for taking the time to look at this. I low it's a pain when I don't have all the data, but this was a nice to have, not a must have. I just work on it at home, so I forget it during the day.
22:18 eli: No, it's definitely an issue that should be addressed...
22:18 eli: The thing is that not many people on the core team use Windows, and I can see how it can be confusing.
22:22 WarWeasle: I am glad I wasn't doing anything too stupid. Wife wants her laptop back. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. I wish I could repay you for your time. But you made my night, if that is anything.
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22:32 em: asumu: I get you can compile it to an executable but how will a person interact with it?
22:46 em: How do you interact with a racket program when it isn't 'running in drracket' ?
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23:55 offby1: em: you could have it read from stdin, or maybe the "console", or listen on a socket