00:02 (join) dherman 00:04 (join) dnolen 00:07 (join) hussaibi_ 00:23 (quit) dherman: Quit: dherman 00:30 (join) srid 00:40 (join) dherman 00:44 (quit) dherman: Ping timeout: 250 seconds 00:47 (quit) JoelMcCracken: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 00:55 (quit) dnolen: Quit: dnolen 01:14 (quit) srid: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. 02:41 (join) Penten``` 02:44 (quit) Penten``: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 03:00 (quit) jonrafkind: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 03:11 (quit) hussaibi_: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 03:11 (quit) hussaibi: Ping timeout: 246 seconds 03:44 (join) masm 04:08 (quit) Penten```: Ping timeout: 246 seconds 04:54 (quit) realitygrill: Quit: realitygrill 05:51 (quit) elliottcable: Quit: rage 06:15 (join) RacketCommitBot 06:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/2146a02...8d3aa69 06:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] remove incorrect comment - Matthew Flatt 06:15 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] fix mismatch between `make-base-eval' and `make-base-eval-factory' - Matthew Flatt 06:15 (part) RacketCommitBot 06:18 (join) MayDaniel 06:19 (join) sheikra 06:24 sheikra: hello 06:25 sheikra: Is there a way to put the fields of the inherited structure at the end of the constructor parameter list? 06:55 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer 06:59 (join) elliottcable 07:04 (join) dnolen 07:07 (quit) elliottcable: Quit: rage 07:10 (join) elliottcable 07:11 (quit) elliottcable: Client Quit 07:12 (join) elliottcable 07:49 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 08:07 (join) DGASAU 08:08 DGASAU: Is there a way to pass libpng's real name? 08:08 DGASAU: We ship libpng15 rather than libpng12. 08:08 DGASAU: (I have patched the corresponding place, but better solution is welcome.) 08:20 (join) JuanDaugherty 08:22 (join) masm 08:25 (join) lucian 08:25 (quit) lucian: Remote host closed the connection 08:26 (join) lucian 08:59 (join) jeapostrophe 09:26 (join) ChibaPet 09:38 (quit) sheikra: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 09:38 (quit) dnolen: Quit: dnolen 09:48 (join) sheikra 09:53 (join) tfb 10:10 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe 10:10 (join) anRch 10:11 (join) misterm_ 10:20 (quit) sheikra: Quit: Leaving 10:24 (join) jeapostrophe 10:31 (quit) elliottcable: Quit: rage 10:40 (join) elliottcable 10:58 (nick) samth_away -> samth 10:59 samth: DGASAU: you should try to dynamically discover where libpng is 10:59 samth: _p4bl0: there might be an additional package w/ the docs 11:03 (join) realitygrill 11:06 (quit) anRch: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 11:07 (join) anRch 11:15 (quit) realitygrill: Quit: realitygrill 11:21 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch 11:39 (join) sheikra 11:46 stamourv: _p4bl0: Given the usual Debian naming conventions, I'd go with 'racket-doc'. 11:48 samth: _p4bl0, stamourv: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/racket-doc 12:00 samth: stamourv: it would be easier to read the commit log if you simplified your commits before pushing 12:01 stamourv: What do you have in mind? 12:01 samth: for example, you have commits that add, and then commits that remove, your pseudo-syntax serialization 12:02 samth: that's useful for some things (if you need to resurrect pseudo-syntax) but makes the commit log less useful for other things (like generating release notes) 12:02 stamourv: I wanted to keep those in to preserve the history of what happened, in case I need to remember the lessons. 12:03 stamourv: Or, as you say, need the code again. 12:03 samth: right, but it does have a cost 12:06 (join) srid 12:22 (join) sheikra_ 12:24 (quit) srid: Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/ 12:25 (quit) sheikra_: Client Quit 12:25 (join) sheikra_ 12:26 sheikra_: hey, does Racket support "named" structure types? 12:26 sheikra_: I found it freaking hard to remember the positions of the fields after inheritance 12:28 (join) MayDaniel 12:30 ChibaPet: In other news, the change to Racket from PLT makes Google significantly trickier. 12:31 samth: sheikra_: you mean constructors with named arguments? 12:31 samth: if so, not unless you build something on top of `struct' 12:31 samth: ChibaPet: what do you mean? 12:31 sheikra_: samth: yes. that would be a nice feature 12:32 samth: ChibaPet: racket-lang.org is pretty high up for "racket" in google 12:32 ChibaPet: That, but searching for different topics within Racket tends to bring up other meanings of Racket before the Scheme variant. 12:32 sheikra_: samth: the inherited parent fields will be always in the front. this is not convenient 12:33 samth: i'm not sure why having the super-struct fields at the front is less convenient than the other way around 12:33 sheikra_: ChibaPet: It will take over after some time I guess. This is geek culture any way 12:33 samth: ChibaPet: such as? 12:34 sheikra_: samth: I didn't say the other way around is more convenient. In fact, I don't think we should fix a position for them 12:34 sheikra_: samth: named fields would be really nice 12:35 ChibaPet: I think I've trained my Google to give me Racket-lang stuff preferentially now. But I remembering having issues finding OpenGL references, for instance. 12:35 samth: sheikra_: see https://github.com/jeapostrophe/exp/blob/master/sstruct.ss 12:36 jeapostrophe: It may have bitrot 12:36 samth: ChibaPet: with firefox private browsing turned on, racket opengl in google produces the right first result 12:36 samth: so i think google is gradually ranking racket higher 12:37 sheikra_: samth: thanks. is there an example use of it? 12:37 ChibaPet: Yeah, I just did a couple searches that seemed reasonable. 12:37 samth: there's a tests file in the same directory, sheikra_ 12:37 DGASAU: samth: dynamically in which sense? 12:37 samth: https://github.com/jeapostrophe/exp/blob/master/sstruct-tests.ss 12:37 DGASAU: samth: the whole point is to _not_ search for libraries dynamically. 12:38 DGASAU: All that should be done at compile time. 12:38 samth: DGASAU: whose compile time? 12:38 sheikra_: Another question, ... is there a programmable regexp library for use in Racket? I mean to compose regular expressions using functions, and not by encoding them as strings... 12:38 DGASAU: Package's. 12:38 samth: DGASAU: you mean, when you build the Racket .deb file? 12:38 samth: does that include running "raco setup"? 12:38 DGASAU: No .deb, package. 12:39 DGASAU: Whatever includes "make install". 12:39 samth: ok, so then you can still do this dynamically, you just have to put it in a macro 12:40 samth: but i don't see a way to avoid doing some form of testing, since the versions are different on different platforms 12:40 DGASAU: I know the version and I can pass it to build system. 12:41 (join) hussaibi 12:41 (join) hussaibi_ 12:45 (quit) sheikra_: Quit: Leaving 12:46 (part) void- 12:49 samth: DGASAU: no, you can't pass it to the build system; the relevant part of the system doesn't take arguments in that sense 12:50 DGASAU: Alright, then I'll inject it via external mechanism. 12:50 DGASAU: I have it already. 12:51 (join) jonrafkind 12:51 (quit) sheikra: Ping timeout: 250 seconds 12:51 samth: DGASAU: i don't think that's the right way to do this 12:52 DGASAU: Which is the right way then? 12:53 samth: change this file: https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/racket/draw/unsafe/png.rkt 12:53 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3v8zlb9 12:53 DGASAU: (JFYI, we prefer static binding to dynamic one, and enforce it wherever possible.) 12:53 samth: to find the right library 12:54 samth: DGASAU: this isn't c code -- dynamic binding is the only option 12:54 DGASAU: I'm doing it already, I thought there's better way. 12:57 samth: it sounded like you were just changing libpng12 to libpng15 12:58 samth: what i'm suggesting is determining dynamically which one you should load 12:59 DGASAU: If there're both existing, it should load the one I tell it to use. 13:00 DGASAU: Run time behaviour dependency on a phase of the moon isn't good idea. 13:00 (join) dherman 13:04 (join) shofetim 13:06 (quit) tfb: Quit: sleeping 13:08 samth: DGASAU: what do you mean "tell it"? 13:09 samth: i feel confident that there's a way to determine which one it should use based on the existing configuration of the system 13:09 samth: without needing to add new runtime configuration options to racket 13:09 DGASAU: The problem is how you check that "existing configuration". 13:10 samth: currently, it tests whether dlopen'ing libpng12 succeeds 13:10 DGASAU: If you don't do it the "standard" way, the way cc does, 13:10 DGASAU: then we want to hardwire it. 13:10 samth: cc does not perform any dlopens 13:10 DGASAU: Sure. 13:11 DGASAU: Then racket is problematic package and we want to tell it explicitly 13:11 DGASAU: which library it should use. 13:11 samth: wouldn't it be better if racket automatically did the right thing, so that people who compiled racket themselves from source got a working version as well? 13:11 DGASAU: No. 13:11 samth: also, what packaging system is this? 13:11 DGASAU: Because racket does it wrong. 13:11 DGASAU: pkgsrc. 13:11 samth: let' 13:12 samth: s just say we'll need more than just your assertion for that 13:12 DGASAU: Do you understand how static binding differs from dynamic one? 13:12 samth: how do you handle python libraries that use python's ctypes ffi? 13:12 samth: DGASAU: yes, i do 13:12 DGASAU: Then you understand that dlopen doesn't work correct, unless assisted. 13:13 samth: that depends entirely on your specification of "correct" 13:13 samth: what behavior of dlopen are you unhappy with? 13:13 DGASAU: Correct in the sense that it behaves like at static binding. 13:14 samth: i feel like you're bringing in assumptions about how dynamic linking should work that aren't universally shared 13:14 DGASAU: Consider this setup. 13:15 DGASAU: You have libpng12.so and libpng15.so 13:15 samth: sure 13:15 DGASAU: You want to build racket with one you chose at build time. 13:15 DGASAU: If racket dlopens during the build, it finds the one it checks first. 13:16 DGASAU: And this library isn't necessarily the one it should use. 13:16 samth: that statement doesn't make any sense -- that isn't how racket the racket ffi works 13:16 DGASAU: Alright, how does it work then? 13:17 samth: there is no "building racket w/ a particular version of libpng" 13:17 DGASAU: I'm looking at png.rkt and see that it builds against particular version. 13:17 DGASAU: Namely, png12. 13:17 DGASAU: Or png14 on Darwin. 13:17 samth: we seem to be using different meanings of "builds" 13:17 DGASAU: Or some unknown on linux. 13:18 samth: png.rkt specifies that *at runtime* it should try to open various shared libraries 13:18 samth: which are chosen based on dynamic behavior at runtime 13:19 DGASAU: If package management system provides the library it expects, 13:20 samth: you seem to want a version of racket where the ffi behaves like static linking, but that doesn't exist 13:20 DGASAU: it builds and uses the very library package management system provided. 13:20 DGASAU: It works for C programs, unless you start playing various tricks. 13:20 samth: the term "builds" seems to be unhelpful here 13:21 samth: there are three times we can consider here: 13:21 samth: 1. when the C source implementing the racket binary is compiled 13:21 samth: 2. when the racket source code in png.rkt is compiled 13:21 samth: 3. when racket loads the compiled version of png.rkt 13:22 samth: but i think it would be helpful to return to how you treat modules in python that use ctypes, which is very similar 13:23 DGASAU: Honestly, I have no idea, how our pythonistas do that. 13:23 DGASAU: I'm C-Fortran and Lisp person. :) 13:25 samth: ok 13:25 samth: let's back up a bit 13:25 samth: why do you want to fix the version of libpng at the time that you run "make install"? 13:26 (quit) DT``: Ping timeout: 250 seconds 13:26 (quit) shachaf: Ping timeout: 240 seconds 13:26 samth: (also, note that changing png.rkt, even if you do not run 'make install' again, will cause it to be recompiled) 13:26 DGASAU: Because I may need to install some other tool that needs another library, 13:26 (quit) ozzloy: Ping timeout: 276 seconds 13:26 DGASAU: and I don't want things to magically break. 13:26 (join) ozzloy 13:27 samth: but how is that any different than when you run make install the first time? 13:27 DGASAU: If it uses right library (which I want to enforce), and it is in rpath (enforced already), then it finds right library. 13:27 DGASAU: If it tries another library before right one, then I have potential problem. 13:28 samth: my question is 'what is the "right" library?" how can you tell? 13:28 DGASAU: The one I set at build time. 13:28 samth: and if you can tell, then you can tell the second time too 13:29 samth: is there genuinely no way to tell dynamically which version of libpng will work? 13:29 DGASAU: Can you propose this way? 13:29 samth: you could check for relevant symbols, for example 13:30 DGASAU: Symbols don't describe calling convention. 13:30 DGASAU: Not even arity. 13:30 samth: right, right 13:30 samth: this is C 13:31 DGASAU: It doesn't matter if it is C or Scheme. 13:31 samth: but (a) if versions are upward compatible, then you can ensure the correct minimum version 13:31 DGASAU: The external format (ELF, Mach-O or whatever) doesn't support it usually. 13:31 samth: (b) you can do everything that autoconf does dynamically in racket 13:31 DGASAU: What if versions aren't upward compatible? 13:32 samth: then we're unhappy the libpng isn't using sonames as intended 13:32 samth: *that 13:33 DGASAU: Looking at https://github.com/plt/racket/blob/master/collects/racket/draw/unsafe/png.rkt 13:33 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3v8zlb9 13:33 DGASAU: I don't see where you depend on soname. 13:33 samth: here's how i see it: if libpng15 works, then it should be added 13:33 DGASAU: (Besides Darwin/Windows.) 13:34 samth: the string "libpng12" is the soname 13:34 DGASAU: What about "libpng.so"? 13:35 samth: if libpng15 works only on whatever system you're packaging for, but not, say, on linux, then there should be a conditional test for that 13:35 DGASAU: It doesn't sound telling you its major version. 13:35 samth: right, some systems provide the so under the name libpng, some under the name libpng12 (and darwin under the name libpng14) 13:36 samth: (my machine has both libpng and libpng12, with the first a symlink to the second) 13:37 (join) DT`` 13:38 (join) shachaf 13:51 (quit) hussaibi: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 13:52 (quit) hussaibi_: Ping timeout: 258 seconds 13:58 samth: DGASAU: btw, what system are you packaging for? 13:58 DGASAU: NetBSD, DragonFly, FreeBSD, Solaris, others. 13:59 DGASAU: (In decreasing order of importance to me personally, others' opinion may differ.) 13:59 samth: i'm surprised that the same packaging works for all of those 14:00 DGASAU: It works approximatly everywhere. 14:00 DGASAU: We have users of Haiku, QNX, and Minix. :) 14:01 samth: how confident would you be that if you create a racket package, that it will work on QNX? 14:01 DGASAU: This isn't my area of responsibility. 14:01 samth: right, i'm just curious 14:02 DGASAU: I don't guarantee that it works on anything besides first in my list. 14:02 samth: ok 14:02 (join) Twilight-Sparkle 14:02 samth: personally, i'd be surprised if racket compiled out of the box on QNX 14:03 DGASAU: I can check if it works on Darwin and CentOS for us, though. 14:03 Twilight-Sparkle: I'm trying to compile racket too, but I got an error 14:03 samth: those i'd expect it to work for, since people using those systems develop racket 14:03 samth: Twilight-Sparkle: what problem are you having? 14:03 Twilight-Sparkle: It says: scheme/base: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "scheme" 14:04 samth: Twilight-Sparkle: can you give a little bit more info on what you're doing? 14:05 Twilight-Sparkle: I'm on linux running make like the install instructions said 14:05 samth: what version of sources are you using, and what exactly did you do 14:05 samth: ? 14:06 Twilight-Sparkle: racket-5.1.1. I make src/build and did ../configure then make 14:07 samth: and 'make' gives you that error? 14:07 (join) anRch 14:07 Twilight-Sparkle: yes although it compiled a bunch of things successfully before getting there 14:08 samth: can you paste some of the output from before that (possibly to pastebin) 14:10 Twilight-Sparkle: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=iLwpexdH 14:11 Twilight-Sparkle: There is no scheme/ in racket-5.1.1/collects/, but I think if it was supposed to be there it would have been in the download 14:12 samth: if there's no `scheme' in that directory, something went wrong in the download 14:12 samth: what file did you download 14:12 samth: ? 14:13 Twilight-Sparkle: the "unix source" from racket-lang.org 14:13 DGASAU: SHA1 (racket-5.1.1-src-unix.tgz) = be339495aef3334530ea8fc63ef4014ad8a4b0b2 14:13 DGASAU: RMD160 (racket-5.1.1-src-unix.tgz) = 8662bb4e2f5cb6e5ccc49fa72a2820e25294c5d5 14:13 DGASAU: Size (racket-5.1.1-src-unix.tgz) = 15884853 bytes 14:13 DGASAU: ? 14:14 DGASAU: (At least we have solution to this kind of problems.) 14:14 Twilight-Sparkle: yes 14:14 Twilight-Sparkle: same sha1 14:14 DGASAU: And the len? 14:15 Twilight-Sparkle: that is also the same 14:15 samth: Twilight-Sparkle: that file has the `scheme' collection for me 14:16 Twilight-Sparkle: This is weird 14:16 Twilight-Sparkle: the tgz does have it (and a lot more) 14:18 samth: Twilight-Sparkle: i just tried building that exact tgz, and it worked 14:18 (quit) JuanDaugherty: Quit: JuanDaugherty 14:19 samth: so i think something must have gone wrong with tar or something similar 14:19 DGASAU: Try building in-tree. 14:19 Twilight-Sparkle: I'm just trying to think how the heck I could extract a tgz and end up having 39 instead of 89 folders in collects/ 14:20 DGASAU: Perhaps build system is broken or poisoned. 14:20 Twilight-Sparkle: I've extracted it again and now I have them all 14:21 samth: what have we learned today: workmen, blame your tools! 14:21 Twilight-Sparkle: haha 14:21 DGASAU: Cosmic rays? 14:24 Twilight-Sparkle: Looks like it! 14:24 Twilight-Sparkle: make worked this time, if it removed 40 files for some reason, it's decided not to this time (probably only because it got found out) 14:25 Twilight-Sparkle: thanks for helping me fix it 14:25 (join) JuanDaugherty 14:25 samth: "helping" :) 14:26 samth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging 14:30 (quit) DGASAU: Remote host closed the connection 14:30 (join) DGASAU 14:31 Daemmerung: "Rubber duckie, you're the one // you debug my code for fun // Rubber duckie, I'm awfully fond of you 14:41 _p4bl0: samth: stamourv: racket-docs rdepends of racket and is already installed. I have the documentation in /usr/share/racket/doc, it's just that the whole scribble part is missing. The files are not there and neither is the link on the documentation index. 14:41 samth: _p4bl0: what files are in /usr/share/racket/doc? 14:42 samth: _p4bl0: this list http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/racket-doc/filelist includes all the generated scribble documentation 14:45 _p4bl0: samth: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/all/racket-doc/filelist <-- nope the problem is visible here, there is no /usr/share/racket/doc/scribble with the documentation of scribble is the package (but this documentation exists at docs.racket-lang.org) 14:45 _p4bl0: I mean the documentation of scribble itself, not the racket doc generated using scribble 14:45 samth: ah, ok 14:45 _p4bl0: the meta-scribble-docs :-p 14:46 samth: that's very strange 14:46 _p4bl0: yep 14:46 samth: that seems like a bug in the debian packaging 14:49 (quit) shofetim: Remote host closed the connection 14:51 _p4bl0: I have to go, I'll fill a bug tomorrow :-) 14:51 _p4bl0: thanks for the help :-) 14:55 (join) tfb 14:55 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch 14:57 stamourv: bremner: ^ 14:57 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer 15:10 (quit) dherman: Read error: Connection reset by peer 15:10 (join) dherman 15:16 (join) RacketCommitBot 15:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/compare/8d3aa69...5ef1473 15:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] adjust `scriblib/figure' CSS for more consistent spacing - Matthew Flatt 15:16 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] add missing items to the release notes - Matthew Flatt 15:16 (part) RacketCommitBot 15:25 (join) bugQ 15:30 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe 15:34 (join) DT``` 15:36 (quit) tfb: Quit: sleeping 15:36 (quit) DT``: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 15:36 (nick) DT``` -> DT`` 16:30 (join) jeapostrophe 16:31 (quit) jeapostrophe: Client Quit 16:34 (quit) offby1: Remote host closed the connection 16:35 (quit) rudybot: Read error: Connection reset by peer 16:36 (join) rudybot 16:38 (join) tfb 16:43 (join) RacketCommitBot 16:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/7977d1817e9d5114f2c2877773199103f3501142 16:43 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] expose the `scribble' command-line driver as `racket/render' - Matthew Flatt 16:43 (part) RacketCommitBot 16:44 (join) offby1 16:44 (quit) offby1: Changing host 16:44 (join) offby1 16:57 (quit) ChibaPet: Quit: Leaving. 17:03 (quit) bugQ: Read error: Operation timed out 17:07 (join) littlebobby 17:17 (join) RacketCommitBot 17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/9a5bae277a878852adcde618729066ac61fa1462 17:17 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] set self modidx on primitive modules - Matthew Flatt 17:17 (part) RacketCommitBot 17:38 (join) anRch 17:38 (join) MayDaniel 17:56 (quit) MayDaniel: Read error: Connection reset by peer 18:05 (join) jeapostrophe 18:07 (quit) jeapostrophe: Client Quit 18:10 (quit) anRch: Quit: anRch 18:35 (quit) misterm_: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 18:37 (join) misterm__ 18:38 (quit) misterm__: Read error: No route to host 18:48 (join) Demosthenes 18:49 (join) tfb_ 18:49 (quit) tfb_: Client Quit 18:53 (quit) tfb: Ping timeout: 255 seconds 18:56 (join) ChibaPet 18:58 (part) ChibaPet 19:04 (quit) lucian: Ping timeout: 264 seconds 19:22 (join) jeapostrophe 19:25 (join) bmp 19:38 (nick) samth -> samth_away 19:41 (quit) samth_away: Quit: Ex-Chat 19:41 (join) dnolen 19:44 (quit) jeapostrophe: Quit: jeapostrophe 19:49 (quit) JuanDaugherty: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 19:54 (quit) tomku: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 20:00 (quit) masm: Ping timeout: 246 seconds 20:06 (join) JuanDaugherty 20:09 (join) tomku 20:13 (join) RacketCommitBot 20:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/plt/racket/commit/8e176bc2756f5fa3c88b0be3689aeb2ee07ca8de 20:13 RacketCommitBot: [racket/master] added documentation for Carl's ... in the student languages; 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