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00:50 racket: [racket] plt pushed 1 new commit to master: http://bit.ly/k9VRlw
00:50 racket: [racket/master] Fix the unit contract tests due to changes in contract violation reports. - Stevie Strickland
00:50 (part) racket
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05:05 regular: hi all! has racket regexps support for named captures? things like (?P<id>\d+) I cannot find anything in the documentation and Google gives nothing.
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06:25 racket: [racket] plt pushed 4 new commits to master: http://bit.ly/kn7reX
06:25 racket: [racket/master] macro-stepper: first step to making macro stepper aware of syntax tainting - Ryan Culpepper
06:25 racket: [racket/master] macro-stepper: more work on syntax tainting - Ryan Culpepper
06:25 racket: [racket/master] unstable: added ppict, pslide - Ryan Culpepper
06:25 (part) racket
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12:06 yoklov2: is there any particular reason why if you create a bitmap from a canvas with make-bitmap, you can't set the pixels with set-argb-pixels?
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12:43 yoklov2: that is quite frustruating
12:46 yoklov2: i guess i can just make on-paint draw a normal bitmap to the screen or something along those lines
12:47 yoklov2: *sigh* coffee time
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14:50 neilv: is the users@racket-lang email list server stuck? i posted 15 minutes ago, and the post is in mailman's web archive, but hasn't come through email to me
14:51 neilv: you know how i like hearing myself talk
14:52 ohwow: hold on, lemme check my mail
14:53 ohwow: neilv: Re: Generated Symbols?
14:53 neilv: yes
14:53 ohwow: Well, I got your mail :)
14:54 neilv: ok, thanks.  it's probably stuck in the middle of going through the distribution list
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15:02 _p4bl0: Hi there, I have a problem with macros. If in the Racket REPL I make some definition in a (begin ...), those definitions are still available out of the (begin ...) block. But if I have a macro expanding to a (begin ...) block then after the call to the macro the definition are gone, is that normal behavior?
15:03 neilv: toplevel and begin are funny.  would it avoid confusion if your macro uses expanded to "define-values" instead of "begin"?
15:05 ohwow: I dont like multiple return values concept :|
15:05 _p4bl0: I need it to return a single value but at the same time to make some definition, I can't do that without begin I guess
15:05 ohwow: I think function sure return one value, like in "normal" math.
15:05 ohwow: But that's just me, I am p stupid
15:05 _p4bl0: http://pastie.org/2159528 here is a minimal example of what I'm talking
15:05 _p4bl0: about
15:07 _p4bl0: this is really a strange, unexpected behavior
15:07 ohwow: can't you use (locals)?
15:08 _p4bl0: ohwow: what is it?
15:08 _p4bl0: oh okay
15:08 _p4bl0: I'll try
15:10 neilv: are you trying to do an mit-scheme-like "define", or something else?
15:10 _p4bl0: it doesn't work, I mean, it work the same way with and without the macro using local, but I want the other behavior
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15:11 _p4bl0: neilv: something else I guess
15:12 neilv: oh, i see.  there are actually two tricky things here.  are you're knowingly trying to violate hygiene?
15:12 _p4bl0: oh...
15:12 _p4bl0: yea
15:12 _p4bl0: didn't thought about it
15:13 _p4bl0: oh actually no I don't think so
15:13 neilv: you're trying to have the macro introduce a binding for "bar", when "bar" was not provided to the macro
15:14 _p4bl0: nope in the real case bar is provided to the macro
15:14 _p4bl0: I'll try to explain what I'm trying to do
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15:15 neilv: http://pastie.org/2159559
15:16 neilv: syntax-rules is the old way. i haven't used define-syntax-rule yet, but perhaps you can try it
15:18 _p4bl0: according to the doc it is the exact same thing
15:18 _p4bl0: I have a function F, which return 2 values: the first one is a quoted lambda expression, and the second one is its "actual" return value. I'd like to make a CALL macro which would return the "actual" return value, and redefine F as (eval <the quoted lambda expr>).
15:20 _p4bl0: http://pastie.org/2159581 this is what I've done
15:21 _p4bl0: it works if I type the (begin...) block without the macro, vut if I use the macro then I have the behavior I described earlier: name isn't redefined
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15:22 ohwow: hm
15:22 ohwow: Is it necessary for you to make it a macro?
15:22 ohwow: because it can be a function
15:23 _p4bl0: ohwow: but if it is a function then the (define name ...) won't be visible outside of it, am i wrong?
15:23 ohwow: yeah, but you could use (set! name ..)
15:28 _p4bl0: it seems the set! if the function as no effect outside of the function
15:31 _p4bl0: see http://pastie.org/2159611
15:32 _p4bl0: BUT with the set inside the begin in the macro version it seems to be working
15:33 ohwow: > (define-syntax-rule (hohai n)
15:33 ohwow: (begin
15:33 ohwow: (set! bar n)
15:33 ohwow: n))
15:33 ohwow: > (define bar 5)
15:33 ohwow: > bar
15:33 ohwow: 5
15:33 ohwow: > (hohai 10)
15:33 ohwow: 10
15:33 ohwow: > bar
15:33 ohwow: 10
15:33 ohwow: > yeah
15:33 ohwow: ooopps
15:33 ohwow: sorry for that
15:33 ohwow: shoul've used the pastebin
15:33 neilv: _p4bl0: are you new to racket and scheme?
15:34 _p4bl0: neilv: not new, but inexperienced
15:34 _p4bl0: neilv: did I say something stupid? ^^
15:34 neilv: i think possibly you are trying to do things that racket and scheme intentionally try to prevent
15:35 neilv: could you say why you want to do this macro stuff? perhaps there is a more idiomatic way to do what you ultimately want
15:38 _p4bl0: neilv: it's working now using set!, I don't think I'm trying to do something that hygien would prevent
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15:40 ohwow: redefining top-level binding is not idiomatic in scheme
15:40 neilv: for example, you could make something like "http://pastie.org/2159611" work in common lisp, but not in racket/scheme, because racket/scheme intentionally prohibit doing that sort of thing
15:40 _p4bl0: thanks ohwow and neilv :-)
15:40 ohwow: please correct me, neilv, if i am wrong
15:41 neilv: so, are you trying to implement a new language, or a library for something?
15:41 _p4bl0: nope, just playing
15:42 neilv: playing is good
15:42 _p4bl0: neilv: http://pastie.org/2159656 here, like this it works
15:43 neilv: _p4bl0: are you sure that the "val" part is not evaluated twice there?  (see the "dummy" in what i posted earlier)
15:44 _p4bl0: neilv: the evaluation of val has no side-effect so it's not a problem that it's evaluated twice
15:45 neilv: ok, so long as you understand that normally you would want your macro to ensure the evaluation happened only once
15:45 _p4bl0: neilv: I have no problem with the theory ;-)
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15:46 neilv: cool
15:46 _p4bl0: neilv: I already read a few papers by the PLT team and many blog post / web pages about lisp, scheme, hygienic macros...
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15:55 yoklov: wait, so _p4bl0
15:55 _p4bl0: yoklov: yes?
15:56 yoklov: you're trying to make (call name arg) define function and result, and then also whatever you provide to it with name
15:56 yoklov: ?
15:57 _p4bl0: yoklov: nope I want (call name arg) to eval (name args) which returns two values let's say v1 and v2. Then I cant to redefine name as (eval v1) and to return v2.
15:58 _p4bl0: function and result are just temporary name for inside the macro
15:58 yoklov: i see.
15:59 _p4bl0: it's working fine now
15:59 yoklov: oh okay then.
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15:59 _p4bl0: yoklov: thanks :-)
16:02 yoklov: regardless p4bl0, if you're looking to learn more about macros, this helped me a lot: http://hipster.home.xs4all.nl/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt
16:03 neilv: that's jrm's syntax-rules primer. that's how i started learning
16:03 yoklov: yeah
16:03 yoklov: its way better than most of the other things i've seen
16:04 yoklov: though tragically is just a flat text file
16:04 yoklov: not even formatted with tex, brutal.
16:06 neilv: someone should ask jrm if he would mind them marking it up in scribble and putting it in planet as "<user>/jrm-syntax-rules-primer".
16:08 neilv: syntax-rules is old-school and esoteric, so i doubt much discussion of it will get into the official racket docs
16:08 neilv: but for someone who wants to learn syntax-rules for whatever reason, jrm's text file is the best intro i've seen
16:09 yoklov: hm, the thing is
16:09 yoklov: there are some other guides that assume you know syntax rules when talking about syntax case
16:10 _p4bl0: yoklov: "tragically is just a flat text file" <-- does not compute
16:10 _p4bl0: ;-)
16:10 yoklov: lol, yeah, at the same time a flat text file is so satisfying to read
16:10 yoklov: you feel like a immense programming badass
16:10 _p4bl0: thanks for the link, apparently I already bookmarked it some times ago (there's the star in my firefox urlbar)
16:11 yoklov: regardless I've never found a guide to syntax-case as good as that one for syntax-rules.
16:11 _p4bl0: syntax-parse is the new way to go anyway :-p
16:11 yoklov: ugh yeah and theres that which i haven't even looked at yet.
16:12 _p4bl0: I just read the paper in the train a few weeks (month?) ago, but never used it.
16:15 yoklov: I'm sure theres some incredibly compelling problem that it solves brilliantly and elegantly, but I just… already know (though I use the term loosely :p) two ways of defining macros.
16:15 yoklov: also syntax parse just sounds so much more intimidating.
16:15 _p4bl0: = more fun
16:16 yoklov: I mean, maybe.
16:17 yoklov: but what was wrong with syntax-case?
16:17 yoklov: it seems fine to me.
16:17 _p4bl0: more fun, at least for those of us who are as much interested in the theory as in using it to actually code.
16:19 yoklov: I am interested in the theory, but I don't think I have the background in it to really make much use of whatever syntax-parse has to offer.
16:19 mithos28: Are syntax-objects supposed to keep their source location when in compiled code?
16:19 _p4bl0: yoklov: from what I remember syntax-parse allows to write macros which are easier to understand (when reading them) in particular regarding to error checking (and reporting)
16:20 yoklov: hrm
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16:21 _p4bl0: yoklov: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccs.neu.edu%2Fscheme%2Fpubs%2Ficfp10-cf.pdf is the paper talking about it
16:21 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/3omwc5f
16:21 _p4bl0: mithos28: dunno, sorry
16:24 mithos28: ok, thanks, because compiling my code makes it produce different results which is annoying
16:24 yoklov: hm this doesn't seem that bad
16:35 yoklov: wow this is actually really cool.
16:36 _p4bl0: 8-)
16:37 _p4bl0: everything PLT does is "really cool", at least.
16:37 yoklov: i mean define-syntax-class?  fairly thoroughly awesome.
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