00:00 eli: The shocking thing is that as much as she's trying to dress it up as a joke, the bottom line is that she did the skit, and 24 hourse later she apologized.  Publicly.
00:00 (quit) dnolen: Quit: dnolen
00:01 ZachBeta: I guess you can't piss off the 800 pound gorilla
00:02 Demosthenes: kindle's remotely deleted books off people's devices..
00:02 ZachBeta: I do admire Apple's marketing though
00:02 ZachBeta: they sell a lifestyle
00:02 ZachBeta: they sell a culture
00:02 Demosthenes: ZachBeta: that make awesome hardware...
00:02 ZachBeta: they sell an image
00:02 ZachBeta: Demosthenes, I'm looking at MBPs for my new laptop
00:02 eli: ZachBeta: Re banning -- not an author, sorry -- a publisher.
00:02 eli: ZachBeta: http://macdailynews.com/2005/05/01/banned_in_apple_stores_icon_steve_jobs_bios_initial_printing_run_is_doubled/
00:02 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/69nqbde
00:02 ZachBeta: but this (apple == evil) discussion makes me slightly doubtful
00:03 ZachBeta: though I guess by fall ubuntu on the newer MBPs will be mature and stable
00:03 eli: ZachBeta: And re the CR links -- I heard it from someone on a local mailing list right after they had the review out, and obviously I went to the apple forums and searched for links myself.  (And there were none.)
00:04 ZachBeta: eli, I believe you now
00:04 Demosthenes: hrm, i'd run ubuntu on mac hardware...
00:04 Demosthenes: i'm currently on a lenovo x201, which is slick
00:05 ZachBeta: I entirely understand the actions they took too.  If you're big stack, you throw around your weight to control the board
00:05 ZachBeta: Demosthenes, I'm on a 5 year old dell inspiron e1505
00:05 ZachBeta: :-|
00:06 eli: ZachBeta: The thing is that Google at least makes some attempt to be very clean -- so at least when they do something wrong there's a general feeling of "aha -- caught you", whereas apple is doing whatever they want in broad daylight.
00:06 eli: It's like the shininess of their toys somehow makes people develop a blind spot.
00:06 offby1: yes, Google sort of went on record as having said "don't be evil"
00:06 ZachBeta: offby1, and they mine us for everything we're worth
00:07 eli: Oh, how could I forget the language stupidity they went through.
00:07 offby1: I will confess that I a) own an iPad; b) brought it with me traveling last weekend; and c) found it way more convenient than a laptop
00:07 ZachBeta: eli, it's because the things that apple does that are evil don't bother the vast majority of their userbase
00:07 eli: Some N months ago when they declared that apps msut be written in either C, C++, or ObjC.
00:07 ZachBeta: I'm sure a lot of people know and ignore it because they're fanboys, but the vast majority likely doesn't care at all
00:08 eli: ZachBeta: Exactly -- hence my earlier point about convenience.
00:08 ZachBeta: eli, but apple probably WON'T go too far
00:08 ZachBeta: and few "cloud" SaaS things as well
00:09 eli: ZachBeta: Any one of the above are things that I'd consider going too far.
00:09 ZachBeta: and the convenience will remain convenient
00:09 ZachBeta: eli, to you yes, to the vast majority no
00:09 offby1: mandating a programming language is just puzzling.  How could they tell?
00:09 offby1: If I were crazy and wrote in assembly language ... ?
00:09 ZachBeta: think of the FSF and the average computer user
00:10 eli: Oh, someone somewhere put it nicely by saying "imagine if MS did *that*", for something that would obviously get MS lynched.
00:10 ZachBeta: how many people care about a completely free kernel
00:10 offby1: or if I wrote in a high-level language which compiled to C ... ?
00:10 eli: offby1: Apparently when you submit an app to the apple appstore, you need to submit the source code too.
00:10 offby1: !!
00:10 offby1: but
00:10 offby1: but
00:10 eli: And source code that is the result of compilation from another language would be pretty obvious.
00:10 offby1: apple doesn't make _their_ source available
00:11 offby1: so why should I make _mine_ available to them?
00:11 eli shrugs
00:11 offby1: yeah
00:11 offby1: it's their world; we just live in it
00:11 ZachBeta: because there's enough spammers and malicious people out there that we can't have nice things
00:11 eli: And everyone knew that all of that was just to continue banning flash.
00:11 offby1: ZachBeta: you don't really think they study the source for exploits, do you?
00:12 ZachBeta: offby1, do security guards really watch all the cameras?  no they keep the tapes to refer back to them in case of a problem
00:12 offby1: hm
00:12 offby1: true
00:12 ZachBeta: people raise hell about an app -> apple investigates the code
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00:13 ZachBeta: much easier to investigate original source than hex dumps or assembler
00:13 eli: IIUC, the state with the app store is worse than just looking at the code -- you get no guarantee that your app will be accepted, which means that there's a whole bunch of companies that develop blindly, and at the end they can be rejected for some random reason.
00:14 ZachBeta: eli, that I've heard on multiple occasions
00:14 ZachBeta: people have developed apps and then apple says "no" and they're up the creek
00:15 (quit) bdamos: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
00:16 eli: Here's one that looked especially bad: http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/24/steve-jobs-to-tawkon-no-interest-in-your-phone-radiation-measurement-app/
00:16 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/6dkag3o
00:16 offby1: eli:  I knew about "rejected for no reason"
00:18 Demosthenes: *sigh* its so sad how few ebooks i'm finding w/o drm :P
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01:02 Sgeo: As much as I hate to defend Apple, that app sounds... suspicious
01:03 Sgeo: Could it really do what it claims, or is it nonsense?
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01:05 Sgeo: Also, as noted in comments, the company wanted stuff added to the APIs
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04:23 (part) Lajla: "I am gay for you"
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05:01 tjarne: need some help with  a school assignment
05:01 tjarne: is there any way to run a program within the program?
05:02 tjarne: as in "rerun" this program command
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05:29 ohwow: Hmm, can't you just make a recursive function?
05:30 tjarne: no I want to clear all variables, just as if I had pressed the run buttom
05:31 tjarne: or rather reset them to their orgininal values
05:35 ohwow: (set! variable-name initial-value) ?
05:38 tjarne: could work, but there are a lot of variables
05:38 tjarne: i sort of painted myself into a corner here
05:39 tjarne: i messed up with load command I think
05:40 tjarne: because local variables won't work as I wan't to
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05:50 tjarne: as the guide describes it "The Run button evaluates the program in the definitions window and resets the interactions window."
05:51 tjarne: but with code
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07:12 no-name-: http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html <- when they use the letter p within the define function what does that stand for?
07:13 ohwow: picture?
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11:27 mprentice: happy tuesday folks
11:28 mprentice: i get undefined identifier for read-bitmap in #lang racket/gui
11:28 mprentice: but the docs say racket/gui provides everything from racket/draw
11:29 mprentice: (make-object bitmap% filename) works, but i was wondering why read-bitmap doesn't
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11:32 ohwow: mprentice: works for me
11:32 ohwow: Welcome to DrRacket, version 5.1 [3m].
11:32 ohwow: Language: racket/gui; memory limit: 512 MB.
11:32 ohwow: > read-bitmap
11:32 ohwow: #<procedure:read-bitmap>
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11:52 offby1: rudybot: init racket/gui
11:52 rudybot: *offby1: error: default-load-handler: cannot open input file: "/usr/local/racket-textual/collects/racket/gui.rkt" (No such file or directory; errno=2)
11:52 offby1: aw
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12:07 stamourv: mprentice: which version are you running?
12:08 mprentice: stamourv: 5.0
12:08 stamourv: works for me in 5.1.1.5
12:09 stamourv: which docs are you reading?
12:09 mprentice: good question. main docs.
12:09 stamourv: if you're reading them on the racket website, they will refer to the latest stable version
12:09 mprentice: docs.racket-lang.org/draw
12:09 stamourv: yes, these docs are for 5.1.1
12:10 stamourv: you can upgrade to the latest stable (there's a lot of new goodies), or you could look for the docs in your local installation, which will refer to the version you have installed
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12:21 mprentice: stamourv: cool, thanks, that's a lot of new stuff. just upgraded.
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13:52 PLT_Notify: racket: master Jay McCarthy * 7a8278a (1 files in 1 dirs): Fixes pr11915, but alpha seems to need two Ctrl-Cs before it starts animating, not sure why - http://bit.ly/lEsWWb
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15:42 clklein: samth: ping
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15:44 samth: clklein, pong
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15:48 clklein: samth: I was surprised to see all the datum->syntax and quasiquotation in fancy-app. For example, instead of (datum->syntax #'here `(#%app ,@(reverse result)) stx stx) I would have written #`(#%app #,@(reverse result)). Would that have been a mistake?
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15:50 jonrafkind: that would create the outer sytax object using the lexical scope of the fancy-app macro
15:51 samth: clklein, that's so that i can copy properties and source locations onto the resulting application
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15:54 clklein: samth: Oh, I forgot about the 3rd and 4th args to datum->syntax
15:56 jonrafkind: I wrote my own (syntax/location+properties ...) that is like syntax/loc but attaches properties as well
15:56 jonrafkind: ryan told me not to use datum->syntax, but basically its the same
15:58 clklein: Sometimes I think that it's way too hard to write macros that do the right thing (e.g., preserve source location).
15:58 clklein: not that I have any better ideas
15:58 jonrafkind: it gets easier after the 99239234th time you screw it up
15:58 jonrafkind: im halfway there!
15:58 samth: clklein, to just preserve source location, you can use `syntax/loc
15:58 samth: ;
15:59 samth: '
15:59 clklein: samth: But how do I know when it's important to preserve properties?
16:00 clklein: and when it's important to presever location for that matter. It's tempting to skip them because they're work that often doesn't matter.
16:02 samth: clklein, unfortunately, it's not always obvious when you want to preserve source location
16:02 samth: or where you want to preserve it to
16:03 clklein: Can't Ryan just magically fix all this?
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16:04 clklein: BTW, I was also worried that I'd never even heard of syntax-track-origin.
16:04 samth: clklein, the trouble with source location is that it's a semantic question
16:05 samth: as in, the decision about source locations is a question about the semantics of your macro
16:05 samth: clklein, i'm not sure that I'm using `syntax-track-origin' appropriately there
16:05 samth: but i didn't have any other good way of copying the syntax properties
16:07 clklein: ah
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16:07 clklein: I guess this is a case where I just fix the PRs as they roll in :)
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16:09 samth: which PRs?
16:10 clklein: the ones where I inevitably mess up source location or properties
16:10 samth: yes
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16:12 clklein: Anyway, it's a little scary that (f _ 2) = (lambda (x) (f x 2) but (f (+ _ 1) 2) = (f (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) 2). Seems like a refactoring mistake waiting to happen.
16:12 clklein: unless you're using TR :)
16:13 jonrafkind: i agree it does look like a problem waiting to happen
16:13 jonrafkind: but people live with it in scala
16:14 jonrafkind: maybe since map knows there should be a lambda around its second expression that it could automatically insert a lambda there
16:14 jonrafkind: as in somehow use lambda as a "prompt"
16:14 jonrafkind: i suppsoe that only works if you know where the original lambda was supposed to go in the first place
16:16 stamourv: clklein: +1 to the refactoring problem
16:16 samth: jonrafkind, cleverness = bad here
16:21 elliott_: <clklein> Anyway, it's a little scary that (f _ 2) = (lambda (x) (f x 2) but (f (+ _ 1) 2) = (f (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) 2). Seems like a refactoring mistake waiting to happen.
16:22 elliott_: I haven't read the above, but I'd use different brackets.
16:22 elliott_: e.g. {f _ 9} = (lambda (x) (f x 9))
16:22 elliott_: then it is unambiguous.
16:22 jonrafkind: yes thats a good idea
16:22 clklein: I don't get it.
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16:23 elliott_: clklein: (f _ 9) = error
16:23 elliott_: {f _ 9} = (lambda (x) (f x 9))
16:23 elliott_: {...} would be shorthand for e.g. (partial-apply ...)
16:23 elliott_: which would be a macro
16:23 carleastlund: Oh, ugh.  () / [] / {} should be a convention, not an enforced syntax.
16:23 elliott_: {} was just an example
16:23 elliott_: any brackets would work
16:23 clklein: elliott_: Ah, I get it now.
16:24 elliott_: or even something like...
16:24 elliott_: #|(...)
16:24 carleastlund: We already use (), [], and {} interchangeably.  We don't really have any other brackets.
16:24 elliott_: except less ugly :)
16:24 elliott_: carleastlund: <...>? hmm, no, comparison operators :)
16:24 elliott_: there's only one thing for it
16:24 elliott_: let's pilfer unicode
16:25 carleastlund: But basically you're suggesting making this "point-free" lambda a macro, and then adding an even shorter reader macro for it.  That, I can see.
16:25 elliott_: 〚f _ 9〛
16:25 elliott_: Right.
16:25 elliott_: Isn't this "cut" from one of them SRFIs?
16:25 elliott_: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/srfi-26.html
16:25 elliott_: "(cut cons (+ a 1) <>) 	is the same as 	(lambda (x2) (cons (+ a 1) x2))"
16:25 elliott_: "(cut list 1 <> 3 <...>) 	is the same as 	(lambda (x2 . xs) (apply list 1 x2 3 xs))"
16:25 elliott_: Yeah.
16:26 jonrafkind: {} would becmoe reader syntax
16:26 jonrafkind: perhaps some other syntax could be used if not {}
16:26 jonrafkind: <{...}>
16:26 stamourv: I haven't seen {} being used at all
16:26 jonrafkind: thats also true
16:27 stamourv: but IMO, that's pretty ugly
16:27 elliott_: I think _ is nicer than <>, by the way, so I don't really like that SRFI.
16:27 jonrafkind: using some syntax or using {} ?
16:27 elliott_: But "cut" is a good name for it.
16:27 stamourv: jonrafkind: {} specifically, but I can't think of a syntax that I'd like
16:27 elliott_: Is #(...) used?
16:28 jonrafkind: thats a struct
16:28 elliott_: Although # is quite ugly in my opinion.
16:28 stamourv: yes, that's vectors
16:28 jonrafkind: or vecvtor or something
16:28 elliott_: oh, right
16:28 carleastlund: I have started using {} in my own personal code, I like having the option.
16:28 jonrafkind: !() @() #() $() %() ^() &() *()
16:28 elliott_: jonrafkind: some of those are not an option thanks to being symbol characters...
16:28 elliott_: well
16:28 jonrafkind: reader macros can do anything they want
16:28 elliott_: admittedly that's badly-spaced code in any case, but still
16:29 elliott_: jonrafkind: I was talking as far as backwards compatibility goes.
16:29 jonrafkind: well adding some reader macro will break backwards compatibility no matter what
16:29 carleastlund: Not if the syntax was illegal before.
16:29 samth: carleastlund, i like using {} for other object languages that are sexp-based
16:29 clklein: carleastlund: Out of curiosity, how do you use it?
16:30 samth: but i'd rather have it for hash tables, or sets, or functions, or *something*'
16:31 carleastlund: I have started using () for anything in an expansion position, [] for repeatable clauses (like in cond, match, syntax-parse, etc.), and {} for anything else.  Special positions -- so, for instance, I'd write (let {[x 1] [y 2]} (+ x y)) .  It helps in larger cases, obviously "let" is very familiar.
16:31 elliott_: I think if this is introduced it is important for the syntax to be convenient and accessible, otherwise nobody will want to use it. So I don't like the idea of something starting with # much. (This week's tautology brought to you by...)
16:32 elliott_: Are any characters reserved? i.e.: not valid symbol characters but not used in any syntax. (Sorry, I'm quite new to Racket.)
16:37 samth: only #, the various parens, | \ " ' ` , ;
16:37 samth: and # is allowed when not at the beginning of a symbol, or when followed by %
16:38 samth: so it's hopeless to try to find an unused character, basically
16:38 elliott_: " is used in syntax...
16:38 elliott_: (strings)
16:39 elliott_: \...|
16:39 elliott_: PERFECT
16:39 elliott_: \+ x _|
16:39 samth: ?
16:40 jonrafkind: awful
16:44 elliott_: That was a joke :)
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16:55 elliott_: Sorry for the noobish question -- is there a version of map that operates on arbitrary sequences, or should I just use for?
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17:00 samth: elliott_ : http://pre.plt-scheme.org/docs/html/reference/sequences.html?q=-map#(def._((lib._racket/sequence..rkt)._sequence-map))
17:02 elliott_: samth: Thanks.
17:03 samth: elliott_, it might not be as fast a using a `for' loop explicitly
17:03 elliott_: Right.
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18:31 PLT_Notify: racket: master Vincent St-Amour * bc4a7df (2 files in 2 dirs): Better solution to the toplevel printing bug.
18:31 PLT_Notify: racket: master Vincent St-Amour * b650541 (1 files in 1 dirs): Fix TR documentation to use the new location of base env files.
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20:57 Sgeo: I saw somewhere something about giving lambdas names so they can refer to themselves. Is that a CL thing, Scheme thing, Racket thing, or what?
20:57 Sgeo: I'm sure it was a LISP-y language
20:58 offby1: I wonder if it's Clojure
20:58 offby1: sounds ever so vaguely familiar
20:58 eli: Sgeo: Usually it's something like this: (define-syntax-rule (named-lambda name args body ...) (letrec ([name (lambda args body ...)]) name))
21:02 Sgeo: SRFI-31 might provide something, but that's not what I remember I think
21:04 Sgeo opens Lisp Box
21:05 Sgeo: Not CL then
21:07 Sgeo seriously needs to set up emacs
21:10 offby1 opens Emacs Box
21:10 offby1: ooh, a kitten
21:13 eli: Sgeo: Variants of that are popular in many lisps.
21:15 Sgeo: The reason I really want such a feature is because, when writing C# code a while ago, I kept wishing I could pass the lambda I was writing to a method elsewhere, not for recursion, but to say "I don't need to receive events anymore"
21:16 eli: Sgeo: Well, as I wrote above, it's one line away from you in any lisp.
21:28 Sgeo: "There?s an alternative way of starting a Geiser REPL: you can connect to an external Scheme process, provided it?s running a REPL server at some known port. How to make that happen depends on the Scheme implementation."
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21:30 offby1: which I think is jao's way of saying "patches welcome" :-)
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21:33 Sgeo: Ooh, forgot to test if srfi/31's rec is a closure
21:33 Sgeo: I can't rightfully imagine it wouldn't be
21:33 Sgeo: Also a good test to see if I have any clue how to deal with these things
21:36 Sgeo: Wonderful, I'm clueless at testing this
21:53 Sgeo: Is there a way to save the running Racket system to a file, a la Smalltalk images/
21:53 Sgeo: ?
21:54 eli: Sgeo: No.  There was something ages ago, but ELF made it extinct.
21:54 Sgeo: hm?
21:55 eli: Many languages that had support for dumping images dropped it since it's more difficult with ELF binaries.
21:56 Sgeo: :/
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22:35 Sgeo: I may have gotten confused with an example in Racket's guide
22:35 Sgeo: That uses a named let
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22:45 Sgeo: Why does Racket use send instead of making the generic method a function?
22:49 shofetim: I haven't looked into the implementation... but I believe its not an object method, its a message.
22:49 shofetim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_passing
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