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00:35 neilv: in drracket, why does Run of "#lang racket" code print the value of each non-void expression, but this does not necessarily happen for "#lang r5rs"?
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00:36 neilv: (i have a request to add that to the sicp language, which is derived from r5rs)
00:40 yoklov: neilv, what do you mean?
00:41 yoklov: i think the difference might be that the racket and r5rs reader are different?
00:44 neilv: this would be something that happens after the code has been evaluated
00:46 DT``: `racket''s #%module-begin wraps everything in a (print ...), `r5rs' does not (because of standard compatibility, I guess).
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00:46 neilv: excellent. thanks
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01:02 EM03: DT``: I still feel like an idiot with racket I'm just slowly becoming less of one
01:04 EM03: PostgreSQL and MySQL support is implemented in pure Racket. The optional SQLite and ODBC support requires the appropriate native client libraries.
01:05 EM03: wouldn't native be a bit faster? I'm all for implementing everything in the most straight forward language / way to do it but not sure if that is a good way to do everything
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01:06 EM03: there is also a mysql.plt ....Not sure which one is really the recommended one?
01:06 DT``: EM03, you don't have to feel like one, everyone was a newbie in the beginning.
01:06 DT``: dunno about SQL and performance.
01:07 EM03: It sucks in the beginning it sucks real bad
01:10 neilv: EM03: for database libraries, sometimes the native libraries simply spit out a socket protocol. in that case, simply doing that protocol from racket cuts out the native code middleman
01:11 EM03: Yea I guess your right but it does make me nervous a bit hehe
01:15 EM03: another issue is that scheme itself is pretty light ....but racket adds a shit ton
01:16 jonrafkind: dont worry about doing things "the right way", that will take months/years to figure out
01:20 neilv: if you want you can start by doing pretty much r5rs scheme, starting your programs with "#lang racket/base", and then looking up in the manual every time you want to do something that's not in r5rs
01:20 neilv: which will be often
01:20 EM03: i mean i already have maybe 200 lines of scheme written
01:20 EM03: doesn't seem like much but still
01:21 EM03: looks like db.plt is the best all around solution ....there s a mysql one and a sqlite one but their development future looks to be in dismay
01:22 EM03: the sqlite binding does something interesting though
01:22 EM03: (define (insert-entry title url score)
01:22 EM03: (insert db (sql (INSERT INTO entries (title url score)
01:22 EM03: VALUES (,title ,url ,score)))))
01:23 EM03: every other sql implementation the sql itself is a string that passed and that is similar to how its done in most other languages I have used
01:23 EM03: Here its like functions and arguments or something? I don't understand how that is working
01:23 neilv: there have been a few different racket/scheme libraries over the years that have used a sexp sql syntax
01:24 EM03: I'm guessing thats what that is?
01:24 neilv: yes
01:24 EM03: jeesh I'm not used to libraries and authors creating new syntax
01:24 neilv: the sexp syntax is actually better, because you can do things like automatic quoting to prevent sql injection leaks
01:25 EM03: I'm not sure if db.plt allows that ....their examples are standard strings
01:25 neilv: ability to define new syntax is 34% of the reason for using racket
01:25 EM03: it sounds super cool for sure .....but when I'm siting here like now how in the hell is that working ...its hard
01:27 neilv: it is actually straightforward once you start using it
01:28 EM03: like the big seller for the web stuff is continuations but I don't really understand how scheme is using them ....and although I guess they are very useful for web dev ....from a seo point of view routing url's to functions is much more concise
01:29 neilv: first-class continuations are pretty much the only hard thing in scheme
01:30 EM03: the docs says the web server is continuation based
01:30 EM03: but at the same time it does allow for url based dispatch
01:30 neilv: i suggest working through tutorials for the racket servlets, playing with it, and getting an intuition that way
01:31 EM03: i guess my question is that I don't have to use continuations if I don't want right? I know that sounds stupid but yea
01:31 yoklov: neil: macro stuff can be hard too.
01:32 neilv: correct, you don't have to use their fancy continuations to use the racket web server
01:32 EM03: but I'm to deep into this now to just go back and do my project in Python
01:32 neilv: you also don't have to use the racket web server. you can do cgi or scgi
01:32 EM03: yea but using the racket webserver would be better would it not?
01:33 neilv: yoklov: yes, i started to qualify that, but backspaced before hitting return
01:33 EM03: I get the template stuff .....url based dispatch ...not sure how the scgi bindings are doing it but it looked pretty bare to me
01:33 neilv: EM03: probably you want to use the racket web server. but it's nice to have scgi there as a backup option, if a political or technical issue comes up
01:33 yoklov: and continuations are only hard because nobody explains them well.  that's my theory, at least :p
01:34 DT``: yoklov, true, but there's no way to explain them well.
01:34 EM03: also i can just use nginx as a reverse proxy with the racket web server ....and serve all static files like that
01:34 DT``: not that I know, at least.
01:34 EM03: just use racket's as a true application server
01:35 neilv: you can explain continuations to someone and then they think they get it, but then they go to do a servlet and they decide nothing makes sense. that's why i suggest starting with the servlets and trying to get an intuition there, THEN going back for the explanation
01:36 EM03: continuations over web rely on a session with the state of the user ....which means from an seo perspective ...just like smalltalk continuation stuff its just not a good idea
01:37 EM03: a web application that is not indexed is different though
01:37 yoklov: I had a professor who did a pretty good, albeit incomplete, job explaining them
01:38 yoklov: built up from continuation passing style, talked about passing the current continuation around and doing backtracking with it
01:39 yoklov: it can be done, but the professor i'm talking about was /remarkably good/ at teaching, so yeah, you're right its a really weird concept
01:39 yoklov: hard to teach
01:39 DT``: CPS is probably the most straightforward method to explain continuations too.
01:40 DT``: since you actually *see* what the continuation is.
01:40 yoklov: yeah
01:40 DT``: (and why call/cc behaves strange)
01:40 neilv: from a quick glance, the ryanc/db planet package's mysql support code looks credible
01:41 EM03: you guys are scaring me .....
01:41 yoklov: you dont need to know continuations
01:41 yoklov: don't worry :p
01:41 neilv: EM03: just work through servlet tutorial and then experiment. it's actually neat, not scary
01:42 yoklov: anyway i'm out
01:42 yoklov: night
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01:42 neilv: your main problem is that CS types will try to `clarify' things for you, and just confuse things before you're ready for more information
01:42 EM03: yea I've been working my way through the racket guides and that tutorial meanwhile actually writing useful code ....i have 5 out of the 15 pages done ....user sign up and some listing pages
01:43 EM03: tons of new forced concepts for sure
01:43 DT``: oh, that's me.
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02:37 EM03: I keep getting I need a start function for the web server to load my app, but http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1225082 I dont see how that will really work, does it not check my url dispatch stuff hmm renaming the define values function to start obviously does not work
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06:58 elliottcable: Hey all. Trying to expirment with writing an R6RS file.
06:59 elliottcable: How, exactly, do I use `#%module-begin` with R6RS libraries and R6RS top-level programs?
06:59 elliottcable: I tried the following as a simple R6RS file with both an R6RS “library” and an R6RS “top-level program” in it; I think I’m mis-applying the necessary Racket bits…
07:00 elliottcable: https://gist.github.com/972114
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07:47 elliottcable: Hm. Is there some way to use R6RS in the interactive interpreter / REPL?
07:51 bremner_: elliottcable: one of -f, -t, -l should do the trick. The details escape me at the moment.
07:53 elliottcable: Heh. `plt-r6rs` doesn’t take any of those
07:54 elliottcable: and if I start it with `racket`, then it’s not in the R6RS “language”
07:54 elliottcable: obviously, #!r6rs doesn’t make a lot of sense in the interactive interpreter, as that’s EOF terminated …
07:54 elliottcable: so I’m thrown for a loop as to how to decide which “language” to use in the REPL
07:56 bremner_: racket -l r6rs   or something like that.
07:56 elliottcable: that’s for (lib … )
07:56 elliottcable: I mean, maybe that’s what I want? I’m not familar with what the “language” portion of a module declaration actually *does*, as of yet
07:56 elliottcable pokes around
07:59 bremner_: racket -l r6rs -i  at least doesn't return an error message.
08:02 elliottcable nods
08:02 elliottcable: but it didn’t give me what I was really expecting, which I then realized was sorta stupid: a way to interactively type R6RS “top-level programs”
08:02 elliottcable: the problem is that (import) isn’t an expression, so I can’t R6RS-import R6RS-libraries
08:03 elliottcable: so I’m writing a simple file which does the importing and then boots the racket read-eval-print-loop procedure
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08:06 elliottcable: Ugh, how can I get access to the `(read-eval-print-loop)` procedure? I don’t see the name of the library I need to import in the documentation
08:06 elliottcable: then again, I don’t know where to look
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10:07 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthew Flatt * 94e8419 (1 files in 1 dirs): fix "#lang r6rs" docs to point back to how-to-use-R6RS sections - http://bit.ly/lxJC0d
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10:41 rpr`: Seems typed/racket and spqslq have been very cleverly designed to circumvent any work around no matter how clever to get them to work together.  Diabolical.
10:55 rpr`: Well almost every...  (Any * -> Any) for all spgsql map and prepare-map will at get it to run.
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11:30 rpr`: set/c
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11:46 rpr`: does anyone know type/racket type for a contract ... gotta be there I'd think.
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11:51 nixfreak: been learning lisp for awhile now but trying to find docs for lisp is a pain
11:52 nixfreak: what are the benchmarks between say scheme python ruby
11:53 bremner_: sensible benchmarks are hard to find. You can google for "computer language shootout" for some micro-benchmarks
11:53 bremner_: note that there is huge variations between different scheme implementations.
11:54 nixfreak: can you use racket with emacs+slime ?
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11:54 bremner_: you can use emacs+geiser, which is similar in concept
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11:55 bremner_: I haven't used slime, only geiser, so I can't give a detailed comparison
11:55 nixfreak: does scheme have "libs included" say like newlisp does
11:55 bremner_: scheme no, racket yest
11:55 bremner_: s/st/s/
11:55 nixfreak: ok cool
11:55 nixfreak: thanks
11:55 bremner_: welcome
12:01 rpr`: <sigh> ok I've given up on finding an efficient way to do (Setof Any) -> (Setof String).  I'm ust unable to get my head around the typed/racket machinery.
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12:34 heeki: hey i'm trying to download the plai package, but i'm having problems.
12:35 heeki: i interrupted the download partway through the first time (C-c C-z), and now it returns a bunch of file paths followed by unstable/syntax.
12:35 heeki: i.e:.plt-scheme/planet/300/4.2.1/cache/plai/plai.plt/1/20/datatype.ss:55:21: unstable/syntax
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13:47 traisen: Is universe.ss current? / most current?
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13:58 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthias Felleisen * 490c38e (6 files in 3 dirs): documentation for old teachpacks, stubs for error module, redirect for Kathy's testing module; fixes for redirects
13:58 PLT_Notify: racket: master Matthias Felleisen * 7c546d3 (0 files in 0 dirs): basic docs for htdp collection
13:58 PLT_Notify: racket: master commits 94e8419...7c546d3 - http://bit.ly/mt1vs0
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15:52 rpr: samth_away: ping
15:53 bremner_: and the futility of away nicks is demonstrated ;)
15:53 rpr: hope springs eternal
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15:58 rpr: Need to put that man on a retainer.
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16:28 rpr: A continously git fetch'd repository, is never pushed.
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17:21 elliottcable: I don’t know if Neil or any of the others so-far involved in the discussion are in here
17:21 elliottcable: but some of you might find this an interesting read: http://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2011-May/045480.html
17:22 elliottcable: if you’ve got any replies, or want more feedback from me, post them to the mailing list thread instead of here, so everyone can see them, please
17:23 elliottcable: on another note: is there an official Twitter hashtag for Racket? #RacketLang has no results, #Racket is full of other non-programming-related crap, and #RacketLang or #Racket-Lang have no results
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20:23 nigel: hi all. I am having a problem with moby
20:23 nigel: contract violation when accessing the choose url
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21:48 PLT_Notify: racket: master Robby Findler * a82ae17 (2 files in 2 dirs): adjust the htdp teachpack docs to use the #:use-sources keyword to demonstrate how it works - http://bit.ly/lfKWXr
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