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02:09 kevin01123: I've compiled racket from git, both from the master branch and v5.0.2. When I start DrRacket, I get this message: Error saving preferences: open-output-file: cannot open output file: "~/.racket/.LOCKracket-prefs.rktd" (Permission denied; errno=13)
02:09 kevin01123: Anyone know what's going on with this?
02:11 jonrafkind: do you have ~/.racket ?
02:11 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Yes.
02:11 jonrafkind: hm, can you run drracket with strace? you have to hack the drracket bash script
02:12 jonrafkind: unless strace -f wil do it
02:13 kevin01123: I did a "strace drracket" at the prompt, and it spit out a lot of stuff. What should I be looking for in that?
02:13 jonrafkind: something about that file, ~/.racket/.LOCK...
02:14 kevin01123: jonrafkind: The text from the strace output is going a million miles a second though. How do I parse it?
02:14 jonrafkind: send it to a file, strace drracket &> out
02:15 jonrafkind: grep LOCK out
02:16 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Nothing useful in that. Lot's of passing of variables (SIG_BLOCK, NONBLOCK, CLOCK, etc.)
02:17 jonrafkind: oh, maybe LOCKracket
02:18 kevin01123: open("/home/kevin/.racket/.LOCKracket-prefs.rktd", O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_EXCL|O_NONBLOCK, 0666) = -1 EACCES (Permission denied)
02:18 kevin01123: That's what I got.
02:18 jonrafkind: do you have that file?
02:18 jonrafkind: run 'stat' on it
02:19 kevin01123: Which one? The out file or the .LOCKracket-prefs.rktd file?
02:19 jonrafkind: .LOCKrac...
02:23 (nick) abbe -> all
02:23 (nick) all -> abbe
02:23 kevin01123: The file is nonexistant. However, doing an ls -l on the ~/.racket directory show that it has root ownership. So my user is trying to create a file in a root owned directory, and it's throwing fits. Why this directory was created with root ownership, I don't know.
02:23 jonrafkind: ok whatever, jsut blow it away
02:24 jonrafkind: i wish unix error messages provided more information.. "permission denied" is so painfully unhelpful
02:25 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Strange. Deleting the directory makes everything work.
02:25 jonrafkind: why is that strange?
02:25 jonrafkind: since you blew it away, now when the directory is created its owned by you
02:25 jonrafkind: i was going to suggest maybe you accidentally ran drracket with root priveleges
02:25 jonrafkind: or did you do 'sudo make install' ?
02:26 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Yeah.
02:26 jonrafkind: racket installs to its own directory so you dont need the sudo
02:26 jonrafkind: but probably that was the culprit
02:26 jonrafkind: hm, the build system should warn you if you run make install with sudo I guess
02:26 kevin01123: So how should I run make install? Just as a user?
02:26 jonrafkind: yea
02:27 jonrafkind: it installs to the racket directory you are already in
02:27 (quit) Quetzalcoatl_: Read error: Operation timed out
02:27 jonrafkind: instead of /usr/local or wahtever
02:27 jonrafkind: didnt you notice where the drracket binary ended up?
02:27 jonrafkind: (shell script rather)
02:27 jonrafkind: i mean how are you running it?
02:27 kevin01123: I passed --prefix=/usr/local to configure.
02:28 kevin01123: And compiled it from /usr/local/src after cloning it from git.
02:28 jonrafkind: oh, so did it isntall there?
02:28 jonrafkind: to /usr/local ?
02:28 kevin01123: Yes.
02:28 jonrafkind: ok i guess some part of the installation process creates that lock file
02:28 jonrafkind: hm...
02:29 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Yeah. It's kind of weird. I compiled it the exact same way on Fedora, but I used su -c './configure ...' rather than sudo ./configure ...
02:29 jonrafkind: i was gonna say, why didnt it create /root/.racket
02:29 jonrafkind: maybe sudo doesn't change the $HOME and su -c does?
02:30 jonrafkind: let me test..
02:30 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Yeah. su -c logs into root for that one command. Once it completes, it logs out.
02:30 jonrafkind: ok so thats it
02:31 jonrafkind: im not sure if the racket build system can do anything about this (using sudo make install)
02:31 jonrafkind: but ill bring it up to the other devs to see if anyone has an idea to prevent it from happening in the future
02:33 jonrafkind: kevin01123, one more thing, when you started drracket before after receiving that error message did drracket shutdown or continue normally?
02:34 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Continued. It would not let me advance to the IDE, however. When I clicked the "OK" button on the dialog, it went away, and was replaced with the exact same dialog box immediatley afterward.
02:34 kevin01123: I was stuck in a loop.
02:34 jonrafkind: so it showed oyu that error foreveR? ok
02:36 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Thank you for your help. You and the other devs have a really great project going.
02:36 jonrafkind: no problem, thanks a lot!
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11:15 em: Today Im going to figure out Racket
11:17 offby1: ha ha!  No you aren't.
11:17 Lajla: em, never.
11:17 Lajla: offby1, by the way.
11:17 Lajla: Ehh
11:17 Lajla: Oh yeah
11:17 offby1: If you figured it out, we'd have to ... you know.
11:17 Lajla: Say you want to make a safe list-length.
11:18 Lajla: THaat
11:18 Lajla: If the structure passed is not a proper list.
11:18 Lajla: returns #f
11:18 Lajla: and otherwise a nonnegative integer.
11:18 Lajla: Which just happens to be
11:18 Lajla: the length of the list.
11:18 Lajla: How would you do this without continuations?
11:21 offby1: Lajla: oh! you're talking to me.
11:21 offby1: I dunno.
11:21 offby1: if my scheme has a built-in "proper-list?" procedure, I'd just use that.
11:22 offby1: Otherwise, I might have to write something to detect circular lists, just like an interview question
11:22 Lajla: offby1, that's a bit expensive no?
11:22 offby1: I dunno
11:22 Lajla: To check it beforehand
11:22 offby1: the problem has never come up, so I've never thought about it.
11:22 Lajla: don't you want to check it while you go.
11:22 Lajla: Well.
11:23 Lajla: What I mean is.
11:23 Lajla: you want continuations
11:23 Lajla: Becaaause
11:23 offby1: srfi/1 has proper-list? ; why not use that?
11:23 Lajla: you can then check while transfersreing.
11:23 Lajla: Well, because you first have to transverse the entire list to check if it's proper
11:23 offby1: .oO("transfersreing"?)
11:23 Lajla: and then again to count the length.
11:23 offby1: true
11:24 Lajla: I never claimed to be able to be awesome spelling.
11:24 offby1: oh I think i see what you're getting at
11:24 Lajla: So, you want to do that at once.
11:24 Lajla: and use continuations
11:24 Lajla: To just escape with #f to the call the moment you see that it is not.
11:24 offby1: you're saying that you want to be able to break out of a loop
11:24 offby1: yeah suer
11:24 offby1: sure
11:24 Lajla: Yeah.
11:24 offby1: I'd use let/ec for that.
11:24 Lajla: So thatis why
11:24 Lajla: continuations rock.
11:24 Lajla: That is cool.
11:24 offby1: well.
11:24 Lajla: But I am just telling you that continuations rock
11:24 Lajla: and you should use them.
11:25 offby1: To play devil's advocate -- lots of languages that don't have first-class continuations nevertheless have a way to return from the middle of a function.
11:25 offby1: Like, in Python, you can just say "return".
11:26 offby1: I guess I was saying, not that I _never_ have _any_ use for continuations; but rather, that I don't need _all_ of the power and generality that you get from call/cc
11:26 offby1: nor am I saying that Scheme shouldn't have call/cc; just that it's a feature that I don't really understand.
11:26 offby1: that is all
11:27 Lajla: offby1, yeah, but the point is, you have a function inside a function to do this.
11:27 Lajla: Like
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11:27 Lajla: return statements 'shadow' each other in most languages.
11:27 (quit) kevin01123: Remote host closed the connection
11:27 Lajla: Basically you can explicitly name them in scheme.
11:27 offby1: that's true.
11:27 Lajla: Same with your recursion point in a named let.
11:27 Lajla: So the inner function can recur the outer one.
11:27 offby1: now, I use named let all the time.
11:27 Lajla: Same with continuations
11:28 Lajla: the inner function can return to the outer.
11:28 Lajla: Yeah
11:28 Lajla: And you agree
11:28 offby1: (or used to, before PLT 4 introduced all that iteration stuff)
11:28 Lajla: that if it always jused used the symbol 'recur' for the recursion point,t hat would be annoying.
11:28 Lajla: But like
11:28 Lajla: in clojure.
11:28 Lajla: The aequivalent is loop/recur.
11:28 Lajla: loop is like a named let without a name.
11:28 offby1: yep
11:28 Lajla: The recursion point is always bound to the symbol recur.
11:28 Lajla: Aaand
11:28 Lajla: I am convincinv them more and more
11:29 Lajla: that you should be able to specify a name.
11:29 Lajla: For inner recursion
11:29 Lajla: to jump back to some outer point if you would so please.
11:29 Lajla: Aaaand
11:29 Lajla: THe same must be done.
11:29 Lajla: for syntax-rules and syntax-case
11:29 Lajla: THat you can name your ...
11:30 Lajla: So that you don't have to use the silliness of (((... ...) (... ...)) ((... ...) (... ...))) to escape it when you expand to a macro which expands to a macro et cetera.
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11:35 Lajla: offby1, hey, don't go leave me.
11:35 Lajla: You must answer and say 'Yes lajla, that is a very good idea, the peope behind R6RS are silly, you are better'
11:38 offby1: I missed your last bunch of spew because my IRC client hung
11:38 offby1: also I refuse to get involved in flame wars about R6RS
11:39 Lajla: http://codepad.org/2LslmZdV
11:39 Lajla: That is no excuse for not telling me how good I am.
11:39 Lajla: offby1, nahh, I like R6RS.
11:39 Lajla: OR well, I rephrase
11:39 Lajla: I like thelanguage, as a standard it's bad because it hardly standardizes existing practices.
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11:40 Lajla: But it's more that syntax-rules I perceive was mistaken to make ... a special identifier from the start.
11:40 offby1: you're talking about features that I never use.
11:40 offby1: like syntax-case.
11:40 Lajla: Instead of just having (syntax-rules ellipses ()
11:40 offby1: I think I used that once, maybe.
11:40 Lajla: And syntax-rules?
11:40 offby1: a few times.
11:40 Lajla: What do you use?
11:40 offby1: now racket has an even simpler thing-- "define-syntax", I think -- and that's what I use
11:40 Lajla: What do you use this language for?
11:40 Lajla: Ehh
11:40 offby1: mostly rudybot
11:40 Lajla: Define syntax consumes either right?
11:41 offby1: I dunno
11:41 offby1: rudybot: doc define-syntax
11:41 rudybot: *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready
11:41 rudybot: *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/define.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt)._define-syntax))
11:41 Lajla: (define-syntax let (syntax-rules () ((let ((name value) ...) body ...) ((lambda (name ...) body ...) value ...)))))
11:41 Lajla: something along those lines
11:42 offby1: actually I think I use define-syntax-rule
11:42 offby1: that's the super-simple one.
11:43 Lajla: Ahhh
11:43 Lajla: Yeha
11:43 Lajla: well,t hat is just syntax rules.
11:43 Lajla: but like, you have the ... right?
11:43 offby1: I think so.
11:43 Lajla: Which carries special meaning.
11:43 Lajla: Yeah
11:43 Lajla: wouldn't you think it to be more scheme.
11:43 Lajla: If you could name that thng.
11:43 Lajla: And use like 'Offby1-dots' in its place
11:44 Lajla: If you so choosed?
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11:44 offby1 stares blankly
11:44 offby1: You seem to be under the impression that I've had my coffee
11:46 Lajla: offby1 =(
11:46 Lajla: You must see the wisdom.
11:46 offby1: sure, I must
11:48 Lajla: =(
11:48 Lajla: I hate you. =(
11:49 offby1: you need to find someone who will reciprocate your whatever.
11:52 Lajla: My hatred?
11:52 Lajla: I think chandler hates me.
11:58 offby1: ask him!
11:58 offby1: rudybot: does chandler hate Lajla?
11:58 rudybot: *offby1: I think chandler hates me.
11:58 offby1: grr
11:58 offby1: I gotta teach the bot not to spew out anything that's less than (say) five minutes old
11:59 Lajla: offby1, ohhh, he just regurgitates things that are said?
12:00 Lajla: offby1, nahhh, it's pretty transparent.
12:00 offby1: Lajla: of course :)
12:00 Lajla: Like, I think samth 'dislikes' me and tries harder to not get annoyed.
12:00 Lajla: And eli is at best not really sure of what to think of me.
12:00 Lajla: But you, you're okay with me.
12:00 offby1 backs away slowly
12:00 Lajla: Hey
12:00 Lajla: THat is not allowed.
12:00 Lajla: I know you love me.
12:00 Lajla: xoxo, Gossip Girl.
12:00 offby1 presses his Panic Button
12:23 Lajla: There is no panic or non panic.
12:23 Lajla: Only power
12:23 Lajla: And those too weak to take it.
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14:27 eli: Lajla: Huh?
14:27 Lajla: eli, what?
14:27 Lajla: Did I say something silly.
14:28 eli: "12:00 Lajla: And eli is at best not really sure of what to think of me."
14:29 Lajla: Well, let me phrase it your way 'Eli thinks I'm okay but my breath smells and he has important guests'.
14:29 Lajla: I think that was something along the lines of what you said.
14:30 eli: I have no memory of important guests, or of your breath...
14:30 Lajla: eli, it was in a discussion where I defended someone who quaestioned scheme's academic potential, you said something like that of me.
14:31 Lajla: Let me see if its praecise phrasing is in the logs.
14:31 Lajla: Oh, every day is another one.
14:31 eli: Lajla: Whatever it was, it has nothing to do with me being sure of what o think of you, or responding to you.  Same goes for any other interpretations, like me not responding etc.
14:33 Lajla: Oct 14 23:21:31 <eli>	Lajla: I like you; you seem like a nice person to talk to, and I enjoy your company.  Just don't stand so close to me -- your breath stinks and I have *important* guests for dinner.
14:34 Lajla: It was reasonably metaphorical I suppose.
14:37 eli: Yes, it was.  IIRC, any chances of me smelling your breath is astronomically small, similar to chances of me remembering whether there were any physical guests at the time.
14:38 Lajla: I guess what you wanted to say was 'you're a nice guy, you just don't know what you talk about', or something. Both of which I would strongly disagree with by the way.
14:42 eli: ...and this is a kind of a sentence that I'd usually just won't reply to, but just to make it clear: IIUC, you claim (indirectly) that you are not a nice guy who knows what he's talking about; there's enough subjectivity there that makes it uninteresting, and it revolves around a personal analysis of yourself, which is also off-topic -- for me, at least.
14:43 Lajla: Well, maybe, but the core of the thing is the first part, not the latter.
14:43 Lajla: What would be most useful, and offtopic admittely is 'Yes, I wanted to say that' or 'No, I did not', or some other explanation of the comment or that you forgot what oyu meant.
14:44 Lajla: Hence the 'by the way' as in, it's a side remark.
14:45 eli: And now I'm completely lost in this argument, and I'm even more certain of my even-smaller interest in it...
14:46 Lajla: Well, it's not the inquisition, can't make you talk if you don't want to.
14:48 eli whews...
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