00:00 jonrafkind: wait was that your question?
00:00 jonrafkind: how do people feel about the speed of racket?
00:00 askhader: Yes.
00:00 jonrafkind: i give you 1/10 for communication skills, but anyway, its not too slow I guess
00:00 jonrafkind: the gui is sort of slow though
00:00 askhader: Well.
00:01 askhader: File I/O for example is blazingly faster with perl, I find.
00:01 askhader: In terms of performance strictly.
00:01 jonrafkind: yea, no doubt
00:01 jonrafkind: well racket wont compare to perl/c/c++
00:01 askhader: What of lisp?
00:01 jonrafkind: but it beats a handful of other dynamic languages (python, ruby)
00:01 jonrafkind: i dunno ive never used any of the major lisps, ive heard they are fast though
00:01 jonrafkind: probably clojure is fast too
00:02 askhader: I hear haskell is fast as anything.
00:02 askhader: Well, figuritvely.
00:02 jonrafkind: yea, ocaml is really fast too
00:02 jonrafkind: but ocaml is not good at perl-esque problems
00:02 askhader: Is ocaml functional?
00:02 jonrafkind: yea, very much so
00:02 askhader: Haha, very functional.
00:03 jonrafkind: it has a reasonablly nice type system as well
00:03 askhader: Perhaps I should take a look.
00:03 jonrafkind: ive written one large program in ocaml and for the most part once I got my program to typecheck (which isnt all that hard) the program generally worked the first time
00:03 jonrafkind: which is really quite amazing
00:03 jonrafkind: ive heard similar stories in haskell land
00:04 askhader: Oh dear.
00:04 askhader: Haskell is divine.
00:04 askhader: I've never done anything practical in it unfortunately.
00:04 jonrafkind: if you like haskell you should look at agda
00:04 askhader: I implemented scheme style lists, I think.
00:04 askhader: Oh?
00:05 jonrafkind: agda can guess at polymorphic types for you, instead of forcing you to explicitly write them down
00:05 jonrafkind: so you can write some really succinct expressions
00:05 jonrafkind: and you can have functions at the type level
00:05 jonrafkind: im not sure if haskell has that..
00:06 jonrafkind: ive started writing a game in ocaml (master of magic clone)
00:06 askhader: Haha nice!
00:07 askhader: I'm looking at haskell file I/O, it looks rather nice
00:07 askhader: And by nice i mean simple.
00:07 jonrafkind: i guess you use that monad stuff
00:08 askhader: haha
00:08 askhader: I have no idea how monads work
00:08 askhader: I'm hoping I can get along completely functionally
00:08 askhader: If I cannot, then I may venture into their depths.
00:09 jonrafkind: from what i can tell a monad just passes state around, and usually you do it in an imperative style
00:10 jonrafkind: instead of f(x(z())) you write do z; x; return f;
00:10 jonrafkind: or something like that
00:10 jonrafkind: and haskell will pass along the IO monad to each line in the 'do' block
00:11 askhader: Interesting.
00:11 jonrafkind: i think the more esoteric syntax is z >>= x >>= f
00:18 askhader: Ah yes
00:18 askhader: Well I'm just blown away by the speed of haskell's basic i/o.
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00:39 Lajla: If there any 'object' in scheme which is not first class?
00:40 Lajla: Like, does scheme differentiate between first and second class citizens?
00:40 Lajla: askhader, you actually you will need the >>= operator for mildly more complex stuff.
00:40 Lajla: THe problem I have with Haskell is that they didn't name it after me.
00:41 Lajla: What has that guy done what I haven't done?
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02:07 jonrafkind: first class means the object can be stored in a value
02:07 jonrafkind: i dont think 'second class' really means anything
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02:32 Lajla: jonrafkind, you mean in a variable right?
02:32 Lajla: Well, it depends, first class just means 'can do the most'
02:32 Lajla: Second is the class after that.
02:32 jonrafkind: do you have an actual definition for 'second class' ?
02:32 Lajla: Like, in php, functions are not first class because you can do stuff with integers you can't do with them I guess.
02:32 jonrafkind: first class can be put into a variable
02:33 Lajla: Well
02:33 jonrafkind: well, functions are sort of first class in php..
02:33 jonrafkind: $x = 'foo';
02:33 jonrafkind: $x();
02:33 Lajla: Then anything some would call an 'object' is first class.
02:33 jonrafkind: I think..
02:33 Lajla: Yeah, you can do that.
02:33 Lajla: But that's more like pointers
02:33 jonrafkind: there are implementation level objects that are not values
02:33 Lajla: Basically a string points to a function there.
02:33 jonrafkind: i mean php is not a good example because its a terrible language
02:33 Lajla: Basically the php environment is an associative array where strings point to values I guess.
02:33 jonrafkind: but sans reflection, methods in java are not first class
02:33 Lajla: Elitist.
02:33 Lajla: I would say that.
02:34 Lajla: You can't really make them at runtime, or can you?
02:34 jonrafkind: well.. not using the normal language features
02:34 jonrafkind: you can always do hacky things like write out some bytecode and read it at runtime
02:34 Lajla: Does Java have anonymous functions?
02:34 Lajla: Ahhh
02:34 Lajla: The good old hack
02:34 jonrafkind: yea it has anonymous classes
02:34 jonrafkind: which are basically equivalent to anonymous functions
02:34 jonrafkind: although much more verbose
02:34 Lajla: Ahhh
02:35 Lajla: Verbosity is cool remember
02:35 jonrafkind: the new lambda stuff that might be in java 8 will essentially compile into anonymous classes
02:35 Lajla: screw that call/cc, go call-with-current-continuation
02:35 Lajla: I hate that 'lambda' word that they use everywhere
02:35 Lajla: It's silly.
02:35 Lajla: I like javascripts function(x,y) { return x;} shit
02:35 jonrafkind: yea i can see that, at this point im indifferent to it
02:36 jonrafkind: but i wouldnt mind using function instead of lambda
02:36 jonrafkind: i really hate langauges that use 'fun'
02:36 jonrafkind: or deffun
02:36 Lajla: You don't like short terms eh?
02:36 Lajla: I think fn is pretty nice.
02:36 Lajla: or just f
02:36 Lajla: f is cool.
02:36 jonrafkind: fail
02:36 jonrafkind: do you read calvin and hobbes?
02:36 Lajla: jonrafkind, what do you think about LaTeX
02:37 Lajla: the language itself.
02:37 Lajla: Yeah
02:37 Lajla: Of course
02:37 Lajla: He reminds me of myself when I was young, and since I'm a narcissist I can't help it.
02:37 jonrafkind: do you recognize this quote? "i cant wait till language becomes a total impediment to understanding"
02:37 jonrafkind: well i butchered it probably, but its close enough
02:37 jonrafkind: latex is weird.. and it doesnt help that the syntax is terrible
02:38 jonrafkind: anyway the point of the quote is that if you screw with language enough you can make it completely pointless
02:40 Lajla: I agree that the syntax is complete nonsense and that Donald Knuth designed it doesn't help, because it means it's badly designed and people defend it just because Donald Knuth designed it.
02:40 Lajla: Well, I've never been a fan of too much English in programming.
02:40 Lajla: It's not my native language anyway.
02:40 Lajla: I feel discriminated. =(
02:40 Lajla: jonrafkind, do you read the Far Side?
02:41 jonrafkind: yea, i used to at least
02:41 jonrafkind: someday my viewpoints will be vindicated, i am sure of that
02:42 jonrafkind: i am the jesus of the programming world
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02:43 Lajla: jonrafkind, then: Cow Tools.
02:43 Lajla: I am still not sure of the functioning of that quote.
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06:28 Lajla: Is there any external difference between a continuation and a procedure that never returns, like say (define (lajla x) (let loop () (display "Lajla is mildly insane") (loop))) ?
06:38 Lajla: eli, you, answer me.
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10:26 Demosthenes: Lajla: Come and dance and love the fish. Mr. Disco summoned it, muahahaha.
10:26 Demosthenes: man, i wish i had a quick answer to this transaction issue
10:28 Lajla: Let's go party work that bodyt
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10:30 Demosthenes: Lajla: Billy is a handyman, porcelin is the surest plan!
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10:31 Demosthenes: i've got 500MB of data to translate and stash into postgres, but due to per object commits it just grinds...
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