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00:31 eli: askhader: (with-output-to-string (lambda () (system "pwd")))
00:31 eli: `subprocess' etc can be a little tricky to handle, but the `process' layer works fine with any IO ports.
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03:44 askhader: eli: =] Thanks
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08:31 fogus`: The paper that Matthias Felleisen references in http://groups.google.com/group/racket-users/msg/3a83050e845278c3? is Barendregt's "Introduction to Lambda Calculus" no?
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13:10 Lajla: jonrafkind,
13:10 jonrafkind: yes my son
13:10 Lajla: Is there any datum d in your model where eval(d) = d does not apply?
13:10 Lajla: I will only be your son if you spank me.
13:11 jonrafkind: well I guess not, it seems to me that by definition a datum is something that eval's to itself
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13:13 Lajla: jonrafkind, I would agree.
13:14 Lajla: jonrafkind, so, basically you have two types of data here.
13:14 Lajla: Data as code
13:14 Lajla: and data as data?
13:14 Lajla: Whereas in data as data, there is no real useful difference between symbols and immutable strings.
13:14 Lajla: But in data as code, symbols are used to provide the compiler with binding information
13:15 jonrafkind: i mean if you have (read "x") => normally that gives you back the symbol "x"
13:15 jonrafkind: so if you wanted to eval that you could have the normal evaluation rules where you do a lookup
13:15 jonrafkind: so if you have (read "'x") you could get back the string "x"
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13:17 Lajla: Though, I would say that the essence of symbols in code is usually that it's irrelevant what they are composed of as characters, as long as they are all the same. Like, you can change any instance of 'fraps to 'blurbs and it would be fine as long as you do all of them.
13:17 Lajla: with strings, their individual characters are usually more relevant.
13:17 Lajla: But I got you man
13:17 Lajla: I reverse engineered you like I work at 51
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16:06 askhader: I have a bit of a dilemma. I have a string that represent a Linux filesystem path that will be passed to a system call. The problem is that I need to escape the spaces and paranthesis, but scheme strings don't support this (i.e. it complains if I try to make a string as follows (define x "foo\ bar")
16:13 Lajla: askhader, what if you use "foo\\ bar" ?
16:13 Lajla: \ has itself a meaning in scheme strings
16:14 Lajla: like "\na" in racket at least is the string compoed of the characters #\newline and #\a
16:14 Lajla: askhader, a better way though
16:14 Lajla: Is just use "foo bar" and run an escape function over it only once before you pass it.
16:15 Lajla: It's a lot safer
16:15 askhader: An escape function?
16:17 jonrafkind: a function that adds the escapes for you
16:18 jonrafkind: or you could pass the system call surrounded by single quotes
16:19 Lajla: Racket supports single quotes?
16:19 Lajla: Doesn't seem so here
16:20 askhader: "' '" ?
16:21 Lajla: That seems to be a triple quote
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16:21 askhader: Haha
16:21 askhader is confuzzled
16:21 Lajla: askhader, basically you write a fun ction on strings that exchanges sequneces like #\space with #\backslash #\space
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16:21 Lajla: Scheme's character notation is beyond annoying.
16:21 Lajla: \a suffices
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16:22 Lajla: #\a is so annoying to type each time.
16:22 Lajla: (string #\C #\h #\a #\r #\a #\c #\t #\e #\r)
16:24 askhader dislikes dicking with characters, makes me feel like writing C
16:25 Lajla: askhader, you'll have to I guess
16:25 Lajla: Scheme is a langauge that makes sense
16:25 Lajla: So there is a difference between characters and strings of length 1
16:25 Lajla: Besides
16:25 Lajla: you can't really do good functional recursive programming without that destinction
16:26 askhader: Good point
16:26 Lajla: Or well
16:26 Lajla: actually, I guess you can to some extend with a string datatype.
16:26 Lajla: But if strings are just ordinary vectors, but filled with only chars.
16:27 Lajla: You end up with stuff like #(#\s #\t #\ r#\i  #\ n #(#\g))
16:27 jonrafkind: (define (escape f) (format "'~a'" f))
16:27 Lajla: Ohhh
16:28 askhader scritches head
16:28 askhader: I haven't seen format before
16:28 Lajla: This is where I would have decomposed it, and let it take some datum for the escapes.
16:28 askhader: oh isomorphic to printf
16:28 Lajla: askhader, as a C programmer...?
16:28 Lajla: Well
16:28 Lajla: excep that it returns
16:28 Lajla: So sprintf
16:28 Lajla: I guess
16:28 jonrafkind: isomorphic.. that word.. i dont think it means what you think it means
16:29 Lajla: I like how python uses "blablabla".format(...)
16:29 Lajla: jonrafkind, don't scare customers
16:29 jonrafkind: you mean "blah blah" % (1, 2, 3)
16:29 askhader: jonrafkind: Truthfully, I don'tknow what it really means
16:29 Lajla: jonrafkind, no, that's depraecated actually.
16:29 Lajla: The new Pythonic® way is "bla bla".format (1, 2, 3)
16:30 Lajla: askhader, it
16:30 Lajla: 's a property of models.
16:30 Lajla: Not of elements therein.
16:30 jonrafkind: oh in python3?
16:30 jonrafkind: i havent followed python3 at all
16:30 Lajla: jonrafkind, don't scare the customers.
16:30 Lajla: Saying you don't python to most people is like saying you don't like chocolate
16:31 Lajla: It will make them run of, thinking you're weird, and nuke your homeland
16:31 jonrafkind: well i follow python 2..
16:32 Lajla: jonrafkind, that also does not have a character datatype.
16:32 Lajla: I think character datatypes are perhaps a bit overkill.
16:32 Lajla: Using integers works fine in a lot of cases.
16:32 Lajla: And using char->integer all the time and then back to perform simple operations can be annoying.
16:33 jonrafkind: i suppose, you could just make those functions yourself, like char+
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16:38 Lajla: jonrafkind, I made them of course
16:39 Lajla: But to make them, I had to use char->integer a lot.
16:39 Lajla: And you have to keep updating stuff later on.
16:39 Lajla: Not updating
16:39 Lajla: but ehh
16:39 Lajla: create variants of functions which use +
16:39 Lajla: That's why I don't like stuff like member, memq, memv et cetera.
16:40 Lajla: I'd rather have member to just take a single praedicate, and returns the first pair for which the head trues it.
16:40 Lajla: So you can like (member (lambda (x) (eqv? x 3)) some-list)
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18:56 mattmight: Clauses in match* should accept a special outer-level (or ...), like (match* (foo bar) [(or (1 2) (3 4)) action]).
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18:58 jonrafkind: well I guess that could work if you used the same variables in the math patterns
18:58 jonrafkind: (or (x y) (x y)) ...
18:58 jonrafkind: i think you can probably write a match-define thing to do that
18:59 jonrafkind: i can try if you aren't feeling adventerous
19:02 jonrafkind: actually in that case can't you just do (match (list foo bar) [(or ...) ...])
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20:04 ari__: who here is onloine
20:04 jonrafkind: sup bro
20:05 Lajla: raprezent
20:05 Lajla: Oh, I see you messaged me.
20:05 jonrafkind: jdawg!
20:05 Lajla: Homies
20:05 Lajla: So like, I waz writin some code and then mah homies were all like 'DANG, diz shit is tight yo'
20:06 Lajla: Buck sayin like 'DANG Man, you gonna optimize it like that, yo, that's some nice flow there'
20:06 askhader: fo shizzle ma nizzle
20:06 Lajla: askhader, racist
20:07 Lajla: There shall be no racism here.
20:07 askhader: O.o
20:07 Lajla: Is let a primitive in racket or is it a macro by the way?
20:07 askhader: Are you for real?
20:07 Lajla: askhader, no.
20:07 Lajla: What gave you that idea
20:07 jonrafkind: let is a macro
20:07 askhader: macro I thin
20:07 jonrafkind: which exands to let-values
20:07 Lajla: jonrafkind, ah, okay
20:07 jonrafkind: in case you ever dont know, just do 'raco expand x.rkt'
20:07 askhader: It's not even worth it go ordeal.
20:07 jonrafkind: nad you will see whats primitive
20:07 askhader: nads!
20:07 Lajla: Ahh
20:07 jonrafkind: narf!
20:07 Lajla: That is true
20:08 Lajla: Gee jonrafkind what are we going to do tonight?
20:08 jonrafkind: get drunk
20:10 Lajla: I was hoping to take over the world.
20:10 Lajla: I don't drink actually.
20:10 Lajla: But twilight machevillian schemes, I'm all about that
20:21 ari__: jon
20:21 ari__: are u any good at programming\
20:21 jonrafkind: sure
20:22 ari__: k
20:22 ari__: i need help with a certain problem
20:22 ari__: number 67
20:23 jonrafkind: what makes you believe anyone here knows what "number 67" refers to?
20:25 Lajla: Means htdp
20:25 Lajla: Also, jonrafkind is actually reaaaally bad
20:25 Lajla: Because he likes infix.
20:25 jonrafkind: i thought htdp was like 2.4.3.2.5
20:25 Lajla: THis is almost as much blasphemy as not thinking that racket is a good industry langauge that is good at about any single task, including a portable assembler.
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20:43 ari__: hey'
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21:00 ari__: hi
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21:58 kevin01123: I'm trying to install fluxus with use for racket. However, running scons gives an error: "ERROR: 'mzscheme' must be installed!" Anyone know how to troubleshoot?
21:59 jonrafkind: maybe edit the SConstruct file and change 'mzscheme' to 'racket'
22:00 kevin01123: jonrafkind: But by installing racket, isn't mzscheme installed as well?
22:00 jonrafkind: no the mzscheme executable was changed to 'racket'
22:00 jonrafkind: i think
22:00 jonrafkind: ok actually mzscheme is still there
22:01 jonrafkind: so where did you install racket to?
22:01 kevin01123: /home/user/Software/racket/bin
22:02 jonrafkind: is mzscheme in there?
22:02 kevin01123: And export PATH=$PATH:/home/user/Software/racket/bin is in my ~/.bashrc
22:02 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Yes, it's there.
22:02 kevin01123: bash autocomplete shows it as well.
22:03 jonrafkind: if you type 'mzscheme' on the command line does it work?
22:03 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Yes.
22:03 jonrafkind: where can i get the latest fluxus tar
22:04 kevin01123: jonrafkind: http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/packages/
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22:04 jonrafkind: oh it wants mzscheme3m
22:05 jonrafkind: just symlink mzscheme to mzscheme3m
22:05 jonrafkind: or edit the scons file to use mzscheme instead of 3m
22:06 jonrafkind: actually that wont solve it
22:06 jonrafkind: bleh..
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22:06 kevin01123: Googling for answers shows nothing. Every "answer" I've seen involves giving up on the cusotm rolled racket and installing the distributions.
22:12 jonrafkind: ok i got ta little farther
22:12 jonrafkind: you must invoke the scons file with the PLTPrefix argument
22:12 jonrafkind: scons PLTPrefix=/home/user/Software/racket
22:12 jonrafkind: then change mzscheme3m to racket3m in the scons file
22:13 jonrafkind: now its telling me i dont have ode installed, but i dont feel like installing that
22:16 (nick) offby1 -> floopy
22:16 (nick) floopy -> floopy`
22:16 Lajla: floopy`, explain this odd behaviour.
22:16 (nick) floopy` -> offby1`
22:16 Lajla: And stop poking me.
22:16 Lajla: Ahat do I look like? An orc?
22:17 (nick) offby1` -> offby1
22:18 offby1: Lajla: hey, it's perfectly explainable!
22:18 offby1: The guys in #git made me do it, I swear
22:20 Lajla: offby1, no, no, you should say 'THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT IN SPACE, IT IS MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED'
22:20 Lajla: And then 'I KNOW it's not 3d'
22:20 offby1 stares blankly
22:21 kevin01123: jonrafkind: ERROR: 'racket3m' must be installed!
22:22 kevin01123: :-/
22:22 jonrafkind: look at config.log
22:22 Lajla: offby1, how can you not know it?
22:23 Lajla: offby1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgeNtKrBQ3s#t=0m27
22:24 Lajla: This is like not knowing whar the 3rd praesident of the US was.
22:24 Lajla: You will get executed if you're with people who practice that custom
22:24 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Ah ha. It was looking for scheme.h in ~/Software/racket/include/plt/
22:24 (nick) offby1 -> offby1`
22:24 jonrafkind: oh yea take out the plt
22:24 (nick) offby1` -> offby1
22:27 askhader: What's the difference between a (local ..) block and a (let..) block?
22:27 kevin01123: jonrafkind: Looks like the paths have been updated in fluxus git.
22:28 jonrafkind: oh good
22:28 jonrafkind: askhader, i think the difference is mostly syntactic
22:28 jonrafkind: except its really local == letrec
22:29 askhader: Oh nice.
22:29 askhader mixes it up
22:30 kevin01123: jonrafkind: What was the ode thing you spoke of earlier?
22:30 jonrafkind: i think its an open source physics library
22:30 jonrafkind: scons complained that i didnt have it installed
22:34 Lajla: In my ideal world, local would be let, and let would be a let which which binds a recursion point to recurse, and an escape continuation to escape
22:34 Lajla: And in my idal world, I would have a girlfriend
22:37 jonrafkind: so you want letrec/ec ?
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22:38 Kevin_: Hi everyone
22:38 askhader: Kevin_: Heya
22:38 Kevin_: I just had a question about a certain dr. racket function
22:39 Kevin_: it's called quicksort
22:39 Kevin_: contract looks like this:
22:39 Kevin_: ;; quicksort : (listof X) (X X  ->  boolean)  ->  (listof X) ;; to construct a list from all items on alox in an order according to cmp (define (quicksort alox cmp) ...)
22:39 askhader: Cool, what about it?
22:39 Lajla: jonrafkind, well, basically like a named let.
22:40 Lajla: Kind of like (let recurse ...)
22:40 Kevin_: so that first parameter, that's the list it sorts, right?
22:40 askhader: Yep
22:40 Lajla: But also binding the escape symbol to an escape procedure
22:40 Lajla: So like
22:40 Lajla: (lambda (escape) (let recurse ...)
22:40 Lajla: And since let was already taken
22:40 Kevin_: ok, but the second parameter confuses me a bit
22:40 Lajla: I syntax-cased this one together
22:40 Kevin_: it seems to be a function
22:40 Lajla: And called it establish
22:40 Lajla: Ehh
22:41 Lajla: (call/cc (lambda (escape) ...)
22:41 Lajla: But you get what I mea-ean
22:41 Kevin_: is that second parameter what quicksort uses to sort the list?
22:41 Kevin_: like, it tells it how to sort the list?
22:41 askhader: Precisely
22:41 askhader: a total order comparison
22:42 askhader: Most sorting implementations just need you to tell them a way to decide what is less than or equal to what in a list of type X and it can infer the rest
22:42 Kevin_: so what would be an example of one?
22:42 askhader: So let's say I define a type, call it a bank account ;-)
22:42 Lajla: kevin_ <=
22:42 Lajla: Woot
22:42 Kevin_: the X X -> boolean isn't very clear
22:42 Lajla: And =>
22:42 Kevin_: ahaa
22:42 Lajla: Or like
22:42 jonrafkind: X means any type
22:42 askhader: (define-struct bank-account (name balance))
22:42 Lajla: Let's do another one
22:42 Lajla: char<-ci?
22:42 Lajla: Was it called right
22:43 askhader: And you want to srot a list of bank accounts in order of increasing balance
22:43 Lajla: Or string<=?
22:43 askhader: Well those work as well =P
22:43 Lajla: Yeah
22:43 Lajla: Or like
22:43 Kevin_: I see, and what do those do?
22:43 Kevin_: so string<=?
22:43 Kevin_: checks to see if string 1 comes before string 2?
22:44 askhader: it checks if string1 is lexicographically less than or equal to string 2
22:44 Lajla: Say you have like (define-struct person (penis-size length IQ number-of-warp-crimes-commited owned-number-of-ranches-in-texas))
22:44 Kevin_: lol wtf
22:44 Kevin_: ok, go on
22:44 askhader: And due to some logical magic, you can infer the other comparisons from that one comparison. That is to say I can define greater than, equal to, not equal to and greater than or equal to all in terms of less than or equal to. =]
22:45 Lajla: You can make one like (define (order . xs) (apply <= (map person.IQ xs)))
22:45 Lajla: kevin, basically it checks on alphabetic sorting
22:45 askhader: Hm is the pasting bot not around?
22:45 Lajla: kevin_ did you know this:
22:46 Kevin_: go on
22:46 Lajla: rudybot: eval (< 1 2 3 4 5)
22:46 rudybot: Lajla: your sandbox is ready
22:46 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #t
22:46 jonrafkind: so Kevin_ you didnt understand that 'X' was a metavariable for any type?
22:46 Lajla: rudybot: eval (< 1 2 3 4 4)
22:46 rudybot: Lajla: ; Value: #f
22:46 Kevin_: no, I know that that's what it is
22:46 jonrafkind: so why was it confusing?
22:46 Lajla: kevin < is less than
22:46 Kevin_: I guess I didn't really interpret that format correctly
22:46 askhader: Here is a function I defined to go through an embdedded list of symbols and return a unique list of symbols that are not defined in 'operators'. Scrutinize my code please  http://paste.lisp.org/display/116933
22:46 Kevin_: like the X X -> Boolean
22:47 jonrafkind: Kevin_, im trying to figure out if the docs should be clearer
22:47 Kevin_: I didn't interpret that as a comparing function
22:47 jonrafkind: do you think the docs left out some key words that would have halped?
22:47 Kevin_: hmmm, the docs?
22:47 jonrafkind: where do you see X X -> Boolean
22:47 Kevin_: oh, it's from a textbook
22:47 Kevin_: How to Design Programs I believe
22:47 jonrafkind: htdp?
22:47 jonrafkind: ok
22:47 Kevin_: yes
22:48 jonrafkind: http://docs.racket-lang.org/htdp-langs/advanced-prim-ops.html?q=quicksort&q=local&q=match
22:48 rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/34ksr5c
22:48 jonrafkind: i see that none of the arugmnets are named
22:48 jonrafkind: which could lead to confusion
22:49 Lajla: kevin, do you know what transitive, reflexive, and antisymmetric means?
22:49 Lajla: And for a variadic number of arguments
22:49 Kevin_: I'm afraid not
22:49 Lajla: kevin_ okay, this is cool stuff
22:49 Lajla: Say we have a function
22:49 Lajla: Like f
22:49 Kevin_: ok
22:49 Lajla: And we call it like (f x y  ... z)
22:49 Lajla: Like, any number of arguments
22:49 Kevin_: yep
22:51 Lajla: Okay, so, we say that such a function is transitive, if necessarily, if (f a ... b) and (f b ... c) produce the the true boolean, then (f a ... b ... c) must also produce the true boolean
22:51 Lajla: His is calld transitivity.
22:51 Lajla: Like = is transitive
22:51 Kevin_: ah, ok
22:51 Kevin_: I think I get that
22:51 Lajla: Because if (= x y z) produces true, and (= z a b) produces true, then it must be that (= x y z a b) also produces true
22:51 Kevin_: makes sense
22:52 Lajla: Okay, reflexive is another interesting property, which says that (f a a a a a ...) for any a must always produce true
22:52 Lajla: Basically, if you call it with the same argument, no matter how many
22:52 Kevin_: what would be the purpose of that though?
22:52 Lajla: Okay, the next part is antisymmetric, which is a bit weird. But this means that if (f a b ... c) produces true, and (f c .. b a) produces true
22:53 Lajla: So like, if you reverse the arguments, and both produce true.
22:53 jonrafkind: its boring math stuff used to prove logic statements
22:53 jonrafkind: its completely worthless in your daily life
22:53 askhader: boring?
22:53 Lajla: THen necessarily, all arguments are aequal.
22:53 askhader: jonrafkind: Untrue
22:53 Lajla: If a function has these three properties.
22:53 Lajla: Then that function is called a ordening function
22:53 Kevin_: ohhhh
22:54 Lajla: Which means that it can say that some thing is "less" than another thing, via some logic.
22:54 Kevin_: ok, I see
22:54 jonrafkind: ok its exciting math stuff thats completely worthless in your daily life
22:54 Lajla: But the properties are important, because like say, if x is less than y, and y than z, then if x was not less than z automatically, it would not be a valid order.
22:54 Lajla: So actually 'less than' is not an order actually.
22:54 Lajla: But 'less than or aequal to' is an order
22:56 Kevin_: would quicksort be able to sort a list of lists?
22:56 offby1: any sort algorithm can sort anything you want, as long as you provide a suitable comparison procedure.
22:57 Lajla: kevin_ sure
22:57 Kevin_: ah, ok
22:57 offby1: You can syndicate any boat you row.
22:57 Lajla: But you have to give a good comparison that satisfies all these properties for its to work.
22:57 Kevin_: sometimes you'd have to make your own comparison procedure though, right?
22:57 Kevin_: if it doesn't exist already
22:57 offby1: Kevin_: not just "sometimes", but "typically".
22:59 offby1: rudybot: eval (sort (list "hey" "you" "bubba") string<?)
22:59 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: ("bubba" "hey" "you")
22:59 offby1: rudybot: eval (sort (list 1 9 2 100) <)
22:59 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: (1 2 9 100)
22:59 Kevin_: wait, what is this rudybot?
22:59 offby1: rudybot: eval (sort '((1 cat) (9 dog) (2 bunny) (100 snake)) (lambda (a b) (<(car a) (carb))))
23:00 rudybot: *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: carb in module: 'program
23:00 offby1: rudybot: eval (sort '((1 cat) (9 dog) (2 bunny) (100 snake)) (lambda (a b) (<(car a) (car b))))
23:00 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: ((1 cat) (2 bunny) (9 dog) (100 snake))
23:00 offby1: gettin' the idea?
23:00 offby1: rudybot: eval (sort '((1 cat) (9 dog) (2 bunny) (100 snake)) < #:key car)
23:00 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: ((1 cat) (2 bunny) (9 dog) (100 snake))
23:00 Kevin_: yeah, I think so
23:00 offby1: that's a somewhat fancier way
23:00 Lajla: Like, this is a total order if you have lists of numbers: (def (listorder . lsts) (or (null? lsts) (if (apply > (map car lsts)) #f (apply listorder (cdr lsts))))
23:01 offby1: rudybot: eval (sort '((1 cat) (9 dog) (2 bunny) (100 snake)) string<? #:key (compose symbol->string cadr))
23:01 rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: ((2 bunny) (1 cat) (9 dog) (100 snake))
23:02 Kevin_: hmm this #:key stuff I've never seen before
23:02 offby1: it's not quite standard, although it's somewhat common.
23:02 offby1: it's just a convenience, but it's pretty convenient.
23:03 Lajla: offby1, your example is actually not an order
23:04 Lajla: Because (1 car) and (1 offby1) are not differentiated.
23:04 Lajla: Or well, if you assume they are identical in some identity relationstip they are.
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23:14 offby1: I don't know what "an order" means, so it doesn't surprise me that my example isn't one.
23:17 Lajla: offby1, I explained it so well.!
23:20 offby1: Ah, but I haven't been paying attention.
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