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10:12 samth: Baughn, '() is scheme_null
10:12 Baughn: I found out, but thanks. :)
10:12 samth: and CGC does scan the C heap
10:14 Baughn: Drat. Any chance I could tell it not to do that?
10:16 samth: Baughn, it would be totally unsafe not to scan it
10:16 samth: the c heap can have pointers
10:16 Baughn: It could, but it doesn't.
10:17 Baughn: I didn't put any there.
10:17 samth: right, but conservative is conservative
10:17 samth: and the runtime uses the C heap as well, and does have pointers
10:17 Baughn: But with a 400MB heap, that suggests I'll /need/ to use 3m
10:17 Baughn: Which is a massive pain.
10:17 samth: why would you have to?
10:18 samth: 3m is faster, but CGC works even on large heaps
10:18 Baughn: Performance reasons. DF is quite slow enough already.
10:18 samth: DF?
10:18 Baughn: Dwarf fortress
10:19 Baughn: It's the game I'm building racket into. (And LGPL is quite inconvenient when it comes to making small downloads, let me tell you..)
10:19 samth: how so?
10:19 samth: LGPL allows dynamic linking
10:19 Baughn: Yes, but static linking results in a smaller package overall
10:20 Baughn: If we didn't need to bundle the dll, things would be different, but.. we do.
10:20 samth: bundle which dll?
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10:20 Baughn: Racket
10:20 Baughn: Come to think of it..
10:21 Baughn: Oh dear. That's a problem; I *can't* uphold the LGPL. :/
10:21 Baughn: Unless there's an exception for the output of raco ctool --c-mods?
10:21 Baughn: Hmm, I suppose I could build an extra dll based on it. Still, troublesome.
10:22 samth: i think the output is not a derived work of Racket
10:22 Baughn: Of *course* it is
10:22 samth: same way the output of gcc isn't a derived work
10:22 Baughn: No lawyer on the planet would claim it isn't
10:22 Baughn: gcc has special exceptions in the license for crt0.s
10:23 Baughn: Code generation doesn't count as a derived work, but the --c-mods does not do code generation as such; it bundles parts of racket
10:23 Baughn: Like the compiler
10:27 samth: the gcc runtime library exception is very similar to the LGPL itself
10:27 samth: however, if you're unsure about this, you could ask on the mailing list about the license issues
10:30 Baughn: I'll..
10:30 Baughn: No, actually. I won't ask on the mailing list; they're not lawyers.
10:30 Baughn: And I won't ask a lawyer, because I can't afford one. :P
10:30 Baughn: I'll just be careful and link everything dynamically.
10:31 Baughn: The legal opinion of even the copyright holder is /not/ sufficient; he could be mistaken.
10:31 Baughn: And if it /would/ suggest he's not inclined to sue, he /is/ allowed to change his mind.
10:31 samth: i agree that we're not lawyers, but if you think the license of the output of raco ctool should be changed, asking on the mailing list is the best way to make it happen
10:32 Baughn: Eh.. I doubt it's practically possible to change it
10:32 Baughn: You'd need the agreement of everyone who's ever submitted code to the project
10:32 samth: the set of people who've contributed to that part of the project is very small
10:33 Baughn: That's not it..
10:33 Baughn: The license of raco applies to raco, not its output
10:34 samth: i agree, i mean that the set of people who've contributed to the portion of racket outputted by raco ctool is very small
10:34 Baughn: The license of the /output/ would be the license of the code that raco compiles to produce said output, which is to say the license of racket/base and any other modules added
10:34 Baughn: Very few people have contributed to racket/base?
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10:36 samth: no, very few people have contributed to the glue code
10:37 samth: if you're worried that your code is a derived work of the static array of bytecode, then you'd have to change the license of the whole project
10:37 samth: which i agree would be difficult
10:37 Baughn: Yes, that's what I was assuming
10:38 Baughn: The bytecode array keeps its (LGPL) license, which means I can't statically link it
10:38 samth: that all depends on the legal import of various forms of linking
10:38 samth: which is far from clear
10:38 samth: what's the license of dwarf fortress?
10:39 Baughn: True. I'm not sure even dynamic linking is legal.
10:39 Baughn: It's not /practically/ possible to switch out the bytecode array
10:39 Baughn: Ah. Proprietary.
10:39 Baughn: It's a freeware, but closed-source game.
10:39 samth: i believe the question of whether or not dynamic linking creates a derived work has never been judicially decided
10:41 samth: ultimately, whether something is a derived work is a question for a court, based on the particulars of the individual case
10:45 samth: also, are you planning on distributing DF linked with racket?
10:45 Baughn: Yes
10:45 samth: or just the racket code
10:50 Baughn: DF linked with racket. We'll be using it as an extension language, etc.
10:52 samth: at that point, i think there are more potential license issues than just the output of raco ctool
10:52 Baughn: Shouldn't be. That's what the LGPL is /for/.
10:53 samth: well, there's no clear definition of dynamic vs static linking for non-C-like languages
10:53 Baughn: Which begs the question of why you'd be using just plain LGPL, yes.
10:54 Baughn: Still, I don't think it should be an issue so long as all the racket code is in DLLs.
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11:26 shofetim: abit off the topic, but if I want to (I do) write a program in racket, and package that program with raco, do I have to disclose the source?
11:27 shofetim: I don't think I have to (I might anyway....)
11:27 shofetim: And do I have to make it freely available?
11:27 samth: shofetim, no, you don't have to
11:28 shofetim: thnks : )
11:47 Baughn: shofetim: Mere aggregation does not cause any of the common OSS licenses to fire
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13:37 jonrafkind: what do I need to get eval to work? I thought eval in a module would use the module's namespace
13:37 samth: nope
13:38 jonrafkind: so whats the current-namespace when eval is executed in a module?
13:38 samth: an empty namespace
13:38 jonrafkind: whats an easy way to get the module's namespace?
13:38 samth: use 'define-namespace-anchor' to get a namespace that's like the body of the module
13:43 jonrafkind: ok cool that worked swell
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14:03 emma: hi guys
14:03 askhader: hi
14:03 emma: I'm a racketeer
14:03 carleastlund: Welcome.  :)
14:06 emma: Thanks :)
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14:06 mije: welcome back, internet !
14:08 askhader: and now back to a series of tubes.
14:09 emma: I don't mean to be too chatty if that's not the style of this channel.
14:10 samth: feel free to be chatty, emma
14:10 emma: I'm excited about the new racket and it seems like it could be a great idea but I'm sometimes sort of confused about how racket fits into the larger context of scheme and such.
14:10 emma: and we call it DrRacket now?
14:10 samth: yes, we do
14:11 samth: although sometimes we have a hard time with that one :)
14:11 emma: Okay!
14:11 samth: as to the larger context, it's the same as it was before the name change
14:11 carleastlund: If you say DrScheme, we will certainly know what you mean.  :)
14:11 emma: Hehe okay well I'm pretty good with change that small :P
14:12 emma: What I mean about the larger context of scheme is that Racket has all these #lang modes and such. It is almost like racket is a language for making other languages?  But although I typed that last sentence I don't really understand it.
14:13 carleastlund: That's right on the nose, Emma.  We build lots of little languages, most based on Scheme, so users can have the right language for the right project.
14:13 carleastlund: You're free to build your own little languages, or use the ones we've written, or just stick to "#lang racket" all the time, whichever works best for you.
14:14 samth: see, for example: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/more-hash-lang.html
14:15 emma: I use Ubuntu and I had previously installed drscheme, will drscheme know what @lang racket means?
14:15 samth: probably no
14:16 samth: since #lang racket is only available in version 5.0
14:16 samth: you
14:16 samth: would need to install the latest version from the website
14:16 carleastlund: If you have 4.x you can just use "#lang scheme" and it will be 99% the same as "#lang racket", though.
14:18 emma: Okay cool.
14:18 emma: For now that's what I'll do but I'm glad you guys have started up this Racket :)
14:20 emma: And I guess #lang scheme (or what will be #lang racket) has all kinds of built in libraries and such that you can use to do practical things like read files and process them?
14:20 samth: yes
14:21 samth: `scheme/file' is the library for files
14:26 Baughn: Say, how do I make scheme_load display some kind of error message if I pass it an invalid file?
14:26 Baughn: It'd be nice to at least know where the parse errors are
14:27 samth: what do you mean by "invalid file"?
14:27 samth: file that doesn't exist?
14:27 Baughn: One with broken code in
14:27 samth: ah
14:27 samth: i'm surprised it doesn't already
14:29 Baughn: It clearly /can/, but it doesn't, no
14:29 Baughn: Wait..
14:29 Baughn: Oh. >_>
14:30 Baughn: It does, it just prints it to stderr instead of the console because I hadn't set the handler yet
14:30 samth: makes sense
14:30 Baughn: Indeed
14:39 mije: i'd like to make a language to fit the DCI architecture with datas, roles etc. but i can't find an easy way to inject traits in objects and not in classes
14:40 samth: mije, traits are not injected into objects
14:40 mije: yep i know, that's my problem :)
14:40 samth: but you can use and create classes at runtime, so that might work for you
14:41 mije: yes that's what i'm doing
14:42 mije: but it's not that elegant
14:44 Baughn: I may be misunderstanding things a bit.. I tried "(module m racket (define foo 42)) (require m)", but that just gets me an error. How am I supposed to use this?
14:44 samth: where are you doing this?
14:44 Baughn: At the moment, in the command-line racket
14:44 samth: you'd have to do (require 'm)
14:45 samth: just m refers to the collection named m
14:45 Baughn: That doesn't error out, but trying to access foo still does
14:45 samth: 'm refers to a module defined at the top level
14:45 samth: you'll need to `provide' foo
14:45 Baughn: Ah.
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20:02 drobat_shmat: I want to represent a matrix (2d-array), what's the best way? vector of vectors?
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22:16 beginner_: Hi All, I have just written a sample code and trying to run the same on Linux machine. What is the command ?
22:19 beginner_: I tried load "test.scm", but it doesnt work
22:22 jonrafkind: in what, drracket?
22:22 jonrafkind: you can just type 'racket test.scm' ont he command line
22:25 beginner_: I am using DrScheme
22:25 jonrafkind: so you tried (load "test.scm") ?
22:25 jonrafkind: or you tried to open the file ?
22:26 beginner_: I have tried load "test.scm".Error is -bash: load command not found
22:26 jonrafkind: i thought you said you were in drscheme
22:26 jonrafkind: if you get an error from bash that means you are on the command line
22:26 beginner_: No .. I meant the machine has DrScheme
22:27 jonrafkind: so are you using drscheme or not?
22:27 beginner_: I said I am using DrScheme and no Racket to code
22:27 jonrafkind: so you wrote the code in drscheme?
22:27 beginner_: Yess ..but that was on Windows ..
22:27 jonrafkind: so load it in drscheme on linux
22:27 beginner_: I want to test the code on Linux
22:28 jonrafkind: do you want to use the command line instead of drscheme?
22:28 jonrafkind: or you dont care?
22:28 beginner_: I want to use the command line
22:28 beginner_: I dont know the command
22:28 jonrafkind: mzscheme load.scm
22:28 jonrafkind: or test.scm, whatever
22:29 beginner_: I am getting an error: default-load-handler: expected a `module' declaration for `test', found: something else in: #<path:/home/rhj265/test.scm>
22:30 jonrafkind: is the first line of test.scm #lang mzscheme ?
22:31 beginner_: No.. Let me change that
22:31 jonrafkind: make it #lang scheme probably
22:31 beginner_: Got it .. thank you very much ..
22:34 beginner_: And how do u run DrScheme on Linux ?
22:35 jonrafkind: just type 'drscheme'
22:35 jonrafkind: assuming you have it installed
22:35 beginner_: Getting an error : "DISPLAY environment variable not set and no -display argument"
22:36 jonrafkind: use ssh -Y when you ssh to the linux box
22:37 beginner_: I didnt get you. Please bear with me since i dont know much of linux commands
22:37 jonrafkind: where is this linux box that you are using
22:37 jonrafkind: is it sitting directly in front of you?
22:38 beginner_: No it is not .. i am remote connecting that machine
22:38 jonrafkind: ok and what are you using to remote connect to it
22:38 beginner_: Putty
22:38 jonrafkind: ok so you cant run drscheme then, you need a special environment set up to do that remotely
22:38 jonrafkind: you can only use the command line from putty
22:39 beginner_: oohh okiee ...
22:39 jonrafkind: you can just run drscheme on your widnows machine and mzscheme on the linux box
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22:43 beginner_: jonrafkind - Got that. Thank you very much
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